Falling from faith.

[BNR32FAN]

Hebrews 6:4-6 in isolation can sometimes be misleading? (This translation is puzzling—“penance”? “maintaining pretences”?)

To be clear, Hebrews 6:4-6 reads:
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“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt" (ESV).​

When reading these verses we should look at the context and keep verse 9 in mind: “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.”

In my view this contrast demonstrates that the character of those who “deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance” (Amplified Bible) is evidence that they have not experienced genuine salvation. “Better things” always “belong to [or accompany] salvation”. Evidence that belongs to true salvation, that is obviously associated with it, is seen in those who cannot habitually out of their fallen character bring shame and disgrace on Christ.

Those who fall away, whose lives are characterised by wrong behaviour (and perhaps by inference, false beliefs), are likened to “thorns and thistles”. Being spiritually worthless they are “near to a curse” and are fit only for burning.

People who continually practise sin in a way that defines their personality, are “not of God” (1st John 3:10); “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him…” (v. 9). They cannot wilfully practise sin because they are born of God. But “...the children of the devil are obvious” (v. 10).

There is an important distinction between those who practise sin and those who are born again and struggle with it—the “flesh” clashes with our inner new creation that’s been birthed in the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:17).

Those who are saved, but repeatedly fall into sin as part in this struggle between flesh and Spirit, are not those who “deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance”. Their struggles against sin will result in spiritual growth. Their lives will show the fruit of the Spirit, the better things that always accompany salvation.

For more see HERE.



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Except those who have never believed cannot have “partaken of the Holy Spirit”.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You posted 2 Timothy 2:10 but I think 2 Timothy 2:12 is a better example.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The epistles to Timothy are not addressed to a congregation but are personal letters from Paul to Timothy. So when he says “if we deny Him, He will deny us” Paul is directly referring to himself and Timothy. So Paul is telling Timothy that they are perfectly capable of denying Christ and Christ will deny them before The Father on Judgement Day if they do.

I think that the letters to Timothy are intended to be read by churches as well as by Timothy but your point is correct insofar as Timothy & Paul both being warned by Paul's words that to deny Christ will lead to Christ denying them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not agree. I point to Matthew 25:31-46, however you may hold to a view that allows you to discount the passage.

He’s misquoting John 3:17-18. Jesus did not use the word “believed” He never does that in reference to receiving eternal life, He used the word “believes” Indicating that this pertains to those who currently believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think that the letters to Timothy are intended to be read by churches as well as by Timothy but your point is correct insofar as Timothy & Paul both being warned by Paul's words that to deny Christ will lead to Christ denying them.

Oh absolutely they are intended to be read by the church, I just think that in this particular case Paul is referring to what would specifically happen to them as individuals if they were to deny Christ. I think what makes this particular verse so powerful on this particular subject is that we know that Paul was saved. John 15:1-7 is another prime example because that message was only given to Christ’s 11 faithful apostles in the upper room after Judas had left the group. So there were no unbelievers present for that message either in which Jesus gave several indications that even they could lose their salvation if they did not abide in Him. Now don’t get me wrong, they didn’t actually abide in Him, they scattered to the wind but they did repent and come back to Him.

 

[bling]

If you begin with an incorrect premise your final conclusion will likewise be incorrect.

First to point out, this is the Apostle Paul speaking to first generation believers. We understand that the main command to the church as a whole - literally her very role on this earth - is to spread the gospel, which to the earliest Christians was absolutely paramount, especially so to Paul.

Doing good in this passage is easily seen through this lens because the greatest good we can do for anyone, according to Scripture, is to share the Gospel - the word Gospel comes from the Greek word euangelion which literally means "The Good News".

When we share Christ with the lost we save their very souls when they receive Christ as Lord and Savior. So sharing that Christ has come to restore our relationship with God and save us from God's wrath is good news indeed.

It's not the only good that can and should be done - even the early Christians fed the poor and such as part of their ministry to reach the lost and care for other Christians- but ultimately our highest calling is to share the Gospel and everything we do reflects upon that.

So, now we are at Galatians 6:9 where Paul says "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Paul here sees the church as a whole reaping a harvest of souls in Jesus' Name.

He was saying, now isn't the time to become complacent with our purpose - that of having a harvest of souls for the Lord upon His Return.

This isn't taking about our individual salvation so much as it's reminding the church at all times to share the Gospel with the lost and be the Ambassadors we are here to be.

I totally agree with your statement: “If you begin with an incorrect premise your final conclusion will likewise be incorrect.”

I disagree with the idea that these verses (Gal. 6:7-10) are directed to the church as a whole single body and not to the individuals in the body, by looking at the context:

The verses just prior are very much directed at individuals with: Gal. 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

Paul than continues the instruction with Gal. 6:7-10 with… A man reaps what he sows. And… 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh… whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

How would a “Church” sow to the pleasure of its flesh?

It is not, “whichever church”, but “whoever” individually.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Holy Spirit does as it will (John 3).

I know that the wind is called "it" and on the whole "it" is, in English, a neuter pronoun, but common usage gives "it" the connotation of an object rather than a person. And the Holy Spirit is a person, so, I'd be happier with "he" in the above.

"Having the Holy Spirit" as in, "sharers of the Holy Spirit" is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit taking up residence within, and regenerating, the believer.

I do not agree.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
"Having the Holy Spirit" as in, "sharers of the Holy Spirit" is not the same thing as the Holy Spirit taking up residence within, and regenerating, the believer.

I do not agree.

I should have said, "Grammatically, it is not the same thing." I'm not sure, myself, of that use of Hebrews 6.

 

[d taylor]

This is true, from the perspective that God as a good Shepherd will never leave a single sheep behind. Of course, God reserves the right to remove names from the book of Life. This serves well as a warning such that everyone of us Christians must be alerted, because Satan won't give up easily.

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There are no accounts in The Bible of a name being removed.

 

[d taylor]

I do not agree. I point to Matthew 25:31-46, however you may hold to a view that allows you to discount the passage.

That Judgment is a judgment that occurs at the end of the tribulation and is not the final judgment. Plus that is a position judgment and not an eternal life judgment for the sheep what position they will receive as they enter into the 1000 year millennium and for the goats what position they will receive where they go.

 

[d taylor]

John 10:29 does not say that He will not cast them away or that they can never turn away from His hand. If I’m holding a frog in my hand and I say that no one can snatch this frog from my hand that doesn’t mean that the frog can’t leap from my hand or I cannot throw the frog from my hand.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Greek word translated to “takes away” means to remove and in reference to something that is attached to anything it means to cut off or remove.

1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
a. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
b. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
c. to draw up: a fish
2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
a. to move from its place
b. to take off or away what is attached to anything
c. to remove
d. to carry off, carry away with one
e. to appropriate what is taken
f. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force

Furthermore as the poster of the OP indicated children of God can once again become sons of disobedience and subject to the wrath of God.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Really more of your misunderstanding of verses. A believer that does bear fruit is taken away from their physical life on earth. Example Ananias and Sapphira or believers at the Lords Supper who had died because of their getting drunk , etc..

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That Judgment is a judgment that occurs at the end of the tribulation and is not the final judgment.

I do not agree. I do not believe that there's a series of last judgements; there's just one and Matthew 25:31-46 describes it.

 

[d taylor]

I do not agree. I do not believe that there's a series of last judgements; there's just one and Matthew 25:31-46 describes it.

The final judgment is the great white throne judgment in Revelation and this judgment is only for unbelievers.
As believers "any person who has believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life" will not be judged, they have at the very moment of belief in Jesus, crossed over from death to life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The final judgment is the great white throne judgment in Revelation and this judgment is only for unbelievers.

I have read dispensationalist theories before. I do not believe them.

 

[Servus]

The language about sheep and goats is figurative in a pictorial and agrarian sense but the reasons for judgement are not figurative, they are plain prose.

Then whoever does whatever for one person goes away to eternal life.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Then whoever does whatever for one person goes away to eternal life.

Yes, at the last judgement.

 

[Servus]

The language about sheep and goats is figurative in a pictorial and agrarian sense but the reasons for judgement are not figurative, they are plain prose.

But the judgement is that those who did something to help someone, go away to eternal life. The story itself doesn't touch on any other contributing factor.

I do not agree. I do not believe that there's a series of last judgements; there's just one and Matthew 25:31-46 describes it.

If that's the case then the final judgement will be based solely on those who helped someone and those who didn't. Because that's the only thing addressed in Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If that's the case then the final judgement will be based solely on those who helped someone and those who didn't. Because that's the only thing addressed in Matthew 25:31-46

Not so. If Matthew 25:31-46 were the only passage about the last judgement you'd have a case but there are other passages and they contribute additional information about the judgement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Really more of your misunderstanding of verses. A believer that does bear fruit is taken away from their physical life on earth. Example Ananias and Sapphira or believers at the Lords Supper who had died because of their getting drunk , etc..

See the difference between my theology and your theology is that I provide evidence to support my theology, whereas you simply make unsupported claims and expect people to accept it as truth. I provided the definition of the Greek word. If you want to ignore it that’s fine, my intention is to provide the truth of God’s word for those who have ears to hear.

 

[d taylor]

See the difference between my theology and your theology is that I provide evidence to support my theology, whereas you simply make unsupported claims and expect people to accept it as truth. I provided the definition of the Greek word. If you want to ignore it that’s fine, my intention is to provide the truth of God’s word for those who have ears to hear.

Your theology makes The Bible and God out to be a liar by having verses that plainly state a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. But you claim that obedience is how a person earns eternal life salvation. You also deny that God is able to keep everyone of His children, your theology states a child of God can snatch themselves out of the hand of God by loss of faith.

 

[Dan Perez]

The verse mentions Israel. It is likely because the people Peter is speaking to are Israelites by descent - they are mixed as regards their current nations of residence.

You say it is LIKELY and where in Acts 2:36 , let all THE HOUSE / OIKIOS is in the NOMINATIVE CASE and is the subject and is SINGULAR which only means the HOSUSE OF Israel

dan p