Faith...

[Jon_]

Uhhh. Did what I think just happened just happened? Did he call you "unregenerate"? Those of us who have borne witness to your fruit know better than that, Kenith.

I agree with the article that I posted in that those who believe "their" faith is consequential to salvation and that their faith is of their own doing, they are the ones who are in danger of hellfire. Actually, I read another article by Vincent Cheung that is pretty level-headed on this issue (instead of his usual flame-throwing). It is applied to Biblical inerrancy, instead, but I think that all the principles are pretty much the same.

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/09/06/biblical-inerrancy-not-optional/

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.
2. Arminianism is a false gospel.
3. Therefore, all who believe Arminianism are not saved.

Do you believe in point #1 and #2?

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

What is this "fruit in their lives"? Is it there "wonderful works"? The Bible calls the "good works" of the unregenerate "dead works" (Heb 9:14), and "fruit unto death" (Ro 7:5).

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Jon_, if you would could you take a look at these Scripture verses below and answer the simple questions that I have asked following each verse reference in your next post.

Romans 16:17-18
"17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Question: Who are Christians to avoid?

2 Corinthians 6:14-17
"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Question: Who are Christians not to be unequally yoked together with?

Question: Who are Christians commanded to be separate from?

Ephesians 5:7-12
"7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

Question: Who are Christians not to be partakers with?

Question: Who are Christians to have no fellowship with?

2 John 1:10-11
"10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Question: Who are Christians not to receive into their house?


Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?

Christians are not to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge one to be going to hell); however, they are commanded to judge all things (1Cor 2:15), and they are commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not depending on that persons doctrine (i.e. belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ). The gospel is the means by which Christians are to judge other people, judging by any other standard is wicked.

-jonas

 

[Imblessed]

Nice post Jon.

I can totally see where you are coming from.

I'm fairly new to the teachings of the Doctrines of Grace, but the longer I am "here", the harder it is to understand those who are "there"!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Uhhh. Did what I think just happened just happened? Did he call you "unregenerate"? Those of us who have borne witness to your fruit know better than that, Kenith.

I agree with the article that I posted in that those who believe "their" faith is consequential to salvation and that their faith is of their own doing, they are the ones who are in danger of hellfire. Actually, I read another article by Vincent Cheung that is pretty level-headed on this issue (instead of his usual flame-throwing). It is applied to Biblical inerrancy, instead, but I think that all the principles are pretty much the same.

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/09/06/biblical-inerrancy-not-optional/

In any case, I think jonas went way overboard here. It is one thing to stand against true semi-Pelagians as the heretics they are, but something completely different to claim Reformed brethren are unregenerate because of their views on the matter.

I do struggle with the issue of those who stubbornly reject the doctrines of grace, though. I really do. I have many dear family members who do just that, but the overwhelming presence of fruit in their lives leads me to believe otherwise, unless that fruit is undetectably rotten.

I simply resign that the state of the souls of any man but myself are ever hidden from me and for that I praise God for his sovereign will. I can do no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Hello Jon,



Thanks for your kind note. I have a good friend, he was Pentecostal (Four Square), and he and I discussed the Doctrines of Grace for six years. Still he could not see it, then my job changed and I had to go off for some training. When I came back after a number of months he had the whole package. It was awesome to see.



There are things that clearly, if they are denied, take you outside the Christian faith. I believe many semi-Pelagians are lost, but there are countless other people who have heard nothing but Arminianism. All the Christian fruit is there, they trust totally in the finished work of Christ for their salvation, but these doctrines are alien to all that they have been taught. And they find it shocking like the folks in Rome.



When I was confronted with Calvinism I knew nothing about it except that is was a bad thing. I met my first Calvinist when I was 23. I am unusual (like most Calvinists) when confronted with something alien; (time allowing) I go after it and try to understand all that I can from all sides.



I was confronted with these ideas at 23/24 years of age and I had time to look at it closely and carefully. The journey took me two full years. To grasp these truths is awesome. Our understanding of God's sovereignty is so important. By God’s grace I have seen many Christian friends also come into these great truths. Some have done so quickly while others have taken up to six years. I counted all these folk as brethren before they understood these doctrines. Their lives should forth the fruit of Salvation and they still do.



I think Jonas is out of line, but there are lots of folks like him and the other fellow I mentioned earlier. He, like the Arminians, will only come to these truths if the Lord reveals them to him by His Spirit, through His Word.



I depend on the Vindication of Christ in these matters. Deo vindice is my motto when confronted by someone like Jonas.



Thanks again.

Dominus vobiscum,

Kenith

 

[jonas3]

I think Jonas is out of line, but there are lots of folks like him and the other fellow I mentioned earlier. He, like the Arminians, will only come to these truths if the Lord reveals them to him by His Spirit, through His Word.

Amazingly you call me an Arminian, and one who needs the truth of the Lord revealed to him by His Spirit. You just called me unregenerate, but you hypocritically judge me to be unregenerate because I judged you to be lost based on your lack of knowledge regarding the true gospel.

Let's see, Cajun would judge a person who believes that God isn't sovereign to have a knowledge of the gospel, but he would judge someone like me not to have a knowledge of the gospel? Now what does that say about Cajun's knowledge of the gospel?

Please provide something that I said to prove my lostness? Give me one statement?

-jonas

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas,

Is R.C. Sproul a Christian?

What about Spurgeon? Is he in hell?

Is John Piper a Christian?

Are there any Christian Pastors in the PCA?

Just curious.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[jonas3]

Jonas,

Is R.C. Sproul a Christian?

What about Spurgeon? Is he in hell?

Is John Piper a Christian?

Are there any Christian Pastors in the PCA?

Just curious.

In Christ,
Kenith

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Please provide something that I said to prove my lostness? Give me one statement?

-jonas

I never said you were lost. I can not see your heart and I do not know your works. If you tell me know Christ then I accept that as so untill you reveal otherwise.

I did say that you lack knowledge and understanding about the Christian faith, but that does not equal being unregenerate. You jomp to lots of conclusion.

I hope you continue these posts, because I think we are getting to know you pretty well. You are not very warm and fuzzy are you?

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

I answered your early questions and you decided that I am lost. So since I have answered the most important of your questions why dont you give a simple yes or no on the ones above. You can see into my heart so how about the men I mention?

Deo vindice,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Cajun, perhaps you could answer at least one of my questions. Come on, humor me.

-jonas.

I hope no one got hit by that dodge Jonas is driving.

Kenith

 

[Jon_]

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.
2. Arminianism is a false gospel.
3. Therefore, all who believe Arminianism are not saved.

Do you believe in point #1 and #2?

Yes. I cannot rightly say that I do not. If the charge of heresy be rightly leveled at those who deny the deity of Christ, those who deny his redemptive atonement must likewise be anathema.

What is this "fruit in their lives"? Is it there "wonderful works"? The Bible calls the "good works" of the unregenerate "dead works" (Heb 9:14), and "fruit unto death" (Ro 7:5).

That is my struggle, though. How can I rightly judge if they are truly unregenerate? I do affirm that God does use the reprobate for his own ends despite theirs. God is completely sovereign, which I praise and thank him for daily. I praise him that all things are by his will and none by mine.

Romans 16:17-18
"17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Question: Who are Christians to avoid?

Indeed. Those who proclaim false doctrine.

2 Corinthians 6:14-17
"14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Question: Who are Christians not to be unequally yoked together with?

Question: Who are Christians commanded to be separate from?

The answer to the first is unbelievers (v. 14). The answer to the second is these same. These I understand and uphold.

Ephesians 5:7-12
"7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret."

Question: Who are Christians not to be partakers with?

Question: Who are Christians to have no fellowship with?

It would seem according to the context (vv. 3-6) that this passage refers to unrepentant sinners, thereby indicating the unregenerate, which are unbelievers. Them we should neither partake nor hold fellowship with.

2 John 1:10-11
"10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Question: Who are Christians not to receive into their house?

Them who do not abide in the "doctrine of Christ," which I take as analogous to those who teach a false gospel (vv. 7, 9).

Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?

Him who professes remission of sins through the blood of Christ and faith in the same unto salvation I consider to be a man of God. With those who refuse Christ as Lord and Savior I have no fellowship.

Christians are not to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge one to be going to hell); however, they are commanded to judge all things (1Cor 2:15), and they are commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not depending on that persons doctrine (i.e. belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ). The gospel is the means by which Christians are to judge other people, judging by any other standard is wicked.

Indeed...

Thank you for your encouragement. I see that I must prayerfully and scripturally consider these things in greater depth. The necessary consequences of my adherence to the whole of what you put forth is the declaration that three retired ordained pastors on my mom's side and nearly all their kin (a handful uphold the doctrines of grace) are accursed of God for faith in a false gospel. Furthermore, the Bible says that I am to set them apart and not have fellowship with them anymore, which means that I will no longer visit them for any reason but to evangelize them.

This kind of division is indeed biblical (Luke 12:51-53), but I hope you'll forgive me if I do not immediately grasp this but pause to consider all the relavent Scriptures and to engage in prayer in this.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

That is all I ask, that these things be considered.

Yes. I cannot rightly say that I do not. If the charge of heresy be rightly leveled at those who deny the deity of Christ, those who deny his redemptive atonement must likewise be anathema.

Good, you recognize that the atonement is essential to the gospel, rather it is the central message OF the gospel!

That is my struggle, though. How can I rightly judge if they are truly unregenerate? I do affirm that God does use the reprobate for his own ends despite theirs.

Christians are to judge based on one's belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It is written, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4. However, a man may say that he believes in the true gospel, but contradict this belief through other heretical notions, such as the idea that he or she was regenerate while he or she believed in a false gospel, or the idea that someone else who believes in a false gopsel (i.e. an Arminian, etc) is or could be regenerate. They bring "another gospel" because they suggest that two totally different gospels are actually acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, which is blasphemy. Furthermore, they would be ones who embraced those who, "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ"; therefore, they, "hath not God", and they would be, "partaker of his evil deeds" (1Jn 9-11). I am only saying that those who profess a false gopsel are currently lost (i.e. unregenerate).

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:18

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Ro 1:16

"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." - Ro 10:2-4

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - 1Cor 1:18

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." - Gal 1:8

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

Etc, etc.

Also, in response to your statement that God uses the reprobate for His own ends, I would like to be more specific:

a. In eternity past, God (in order to more fully reveal to the elect His saving love towards them) purposed to create a people for displaying His power, wrath, and hatred of sin and unbelief. [Exo 9:14-16; Psa 73:17-18; Pro 16:4; Jer 6:28-30; Hab 1:6-11; Rom 9:17,21-23; 1Pe 2:8]

b. Every person without exception is either a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath. There is no one about whom God is undecided. [Isa 45:23; Rom 9:22-23; 14:11]

c. The Father determined to include the elect and the reprobate in one common fall, that they should be equally ruined and undone, equally guilty and defiled, and equally in need of a righteousness that neither could produce on their own. [Rom 3:9-12,23; 5:12-14; Eph 2:3]

d. God actively causes the reprobate to hate His glory, persecute His people, and oppose His gospel, that He may justly punish them. [Exo 7:3; 9:12; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 2:25; Psa 105:25; Rom 9:18; Rev 17:17]

e. God does not have any love toward the reprobate or any desire to save them, for God does not show love at the expense of His justice. The good things that God gives to them in this life lead only to their destruction, increasing their guilt for their thanklessness to God. Jesus Christ did not die for the reprobate in any sense, and they do not benefit in any sense from His death. Scripture, in speaking of God's love for "all men" and "the world" is not speaking of all men without exception. Rather, these words refer to God's love for all men without distinction - that is, regardless of their nationality or status. [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]

f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate. [Isa 6:9-12; Mat 13:13-15; Mar 4:11-12; 2Co 2:14-16]

g. Contrary to the aspersions of the enemies of God, this doctrine of reprobation does not make believers exalt themselves over other men; instead, it humbles them and causes them to tremble before Almighty God, thankful that He has graciously numbered them among the elect rather than the reprobate. [Rom 9:15-16,23,29; 1Co 4:7; 2Th 2:11-13]

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Final Question: How can you separate yourself from unbelievers if you don't judge someone to be an unbeliever?

Him who professes remission of sins through the blood of Christ and faith in the same unto salvation I consider to be a man of God. With those who refuse Christ as Lord and Savior I have no fellowship.

I agree with your answers to the other questions; however, I would rather say to this last one that an unbeliever is someone who does not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ for His people alone. Virtually all professing "Christians" would profess that they have remission of sins through Christ's blood and "faith" in Him unto salvation. However, this is not an indication that an individual is regenerate. It would be a great folly to embrace as brethren someone who simply professes "faith" in Christ. What does their faith IN Christ actually profess?

Indeed...

Thank you for your encouragement. I see that I must prayerfully and scripturally consider these things in greater depth. The necessary consequences of my adherence to the whole of what you put forth is the declaration that three retired ordained pastors on my mom's side and nearly all their kin (a handful uphold the doctrines of grace) are accursed of God for faith in a false gospel. Furthermore, the Bible says that I am to set them apart and not have fellowship with them anymore, which means that I will no longer visit them for any reason but to evangelize them.

You can visit people, but fellowship means to call someone a brother and or sister in Christ, and to fellowship with them in worship. Now if one is witnessing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to a family member and they show themselves to be an unregenerate false professor, then one must not speak peace to them, when there is no peace. Bring to mind 2Jn 1:9-11 again. Also, if you declare the TRUE GOSPEL, this is what will happen, "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." - 1Jn 3:13.

This kind of division is indeed biblical (Luke 12:51-53), but I hope you'll forgive me if I do not immediately grasp this but pause to consider all the relavent Scriptures and to engage in prayer in this.

May God cause you to believe His truth!

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." - Pro 20:12.

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

Christians are to judge based on one's belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It is written, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4. However, a man may say that he believes in the true gospel, but contradict this belief through other heretical notions, such as the idea that he or she was regenerate while he or she believed in a false gospel, or the idea that someone else who believes in a false gopsel (i.e. an Arminian, etc) is or could be regenerate. They bring "another gospel" because they suggest that two totally different gospels are actually acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, which is blasphemy. Furthermore, they would be ones who embraced those who, "abideth not in the doctrine of Christ"; therefore, they, "hath not God", and they would be, "partaker of his evil deeds" (1Jn 9-11). I am only saying that those who profess a false gopsel are currently lost (i.e. unregenerate).

I understand, and say I do believe this. I have felt conviction of this truth nearly from the immediate beginning of God's revelation of his doctrines of grace to me. I have always considered that if what I profess to be true is true, then those that profess something contradictory are wrong. As what I affirm as true is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it follows that these people contradict the same; thus, they are unregenerate and not partakers with Christ.

Also, in response to your statement that God uses the reprobate for His own ends, I would like to be more specific:

. . .


e. God does not have any love toward the reprobate or any desire to save them, for God does not show love at the expense of His justice. The good things that God gives to them in this life lead only to their destruction, increasing their guilt for their thanklessness to God. Jesus Christ did not die for the reprobate in any sense, and they do not benefit in any sense from His death. Scripture, in speaking of God's love for "all men" and "the world" is not speaking of all men without exception. Rather, these words refer to God's love for all men without distinction - that is, regardless of their nationality or status. [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]

I suppose this depends on your definition of "love." God most certainly bestows blessings and does good for the evil and unjust in the form of kindnesses and favor through nature (Mt. 5:43-48). I think we are called to show the same kindness and blessings toward the reprobate. If we are called to love all and thus be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, does it not follow that God loves all men (at least in some sense)?

I do understand that God shows hatred toward the reprobate in the form of judgment and wrath and love toward the elect in the form of mercy and grace, but are you saying that all God's motives for "loving" the reprobate are intended only to promote further sinful rebellion in them?

It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite.

Might you provide an exegesis of it?

f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate. [Isa 6:9-12; Mat 13:13-15; Mar 4:11-12; 2Co 2:14-16]

Right, the denial of "common grace" and the "sincere offer." I too reject the "sincere offer" of the gospel, finding it to be dangerous Arminian error.

g. Contrary to the aspersions of the enemies of God, this doctrine of reprobation does not make believers exalt themselves over other men; instead, it humbles them and causes them to tremble before Almighty God, thankful that He has graciously numbered them among the elect rather than the reprobate. [Rom 9:15-16,23,29; 1Co 4:7; 2Th 2:11-13]

Definitely. I am a worm saved solely by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus by no merit of my own but by according to his sovereign purpose in election. For that I am forever thankful and full of love toward him, for while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me and really did complete the work of redemption required by the Father for the forgiveness of my sins, this being effectual to my salvation by way of his irresistable grace unto faith.

I agree with your answers to the other questions; however, I would rather say to this last one that an unbeliever is someone who does not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ for His people alone. Virtually all professing "Christians" would profess that they have remission of sins through Christ's blood and "faith" in Him unto salvation. However, this is not an indication that an individual is regenerate. It would be a great folly to embrace as brethren someone who simply professes "faith" in Christ. What does their faith IN Christ actually profess?

You can visit people, but fellowship means to call someone a brother and or sister in Christ, and to fellowship with them in worship.

Let me ask you this, is it sinful to partake of the Lord's Supper with any who do not profess the doctrines of grace? If so, then I could not even participate at church. Moreover, I realize I should not be at the church I am, but I made commitments prior to knowing better and I believe that I should uphold them.

Now if one is witnessing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to a family member and they show themselves to be an unregenerate false professor, then one must not speak peace to them, when there is no peace. Bring to mind 2Jn 1:9-11 again. Also, if you declare the TRUE GOSPEL, this is what will happen, "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." - 1Jn 3:13.

I understand.

May God cause you to believe His truth!

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." - Pro 20:12.

Amen and amen.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas, holds to a deviant branch of Calvinism known as hyper-Calvinism and to a subsection of hypers that have fittingly been tagged by the folks at Monergism.com as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. I recommend y’all read it (especially Jon).

I asked Jonas about some of today’s prominent Calvinist and about C.H. Spurgeon but he has not answered (he has dodged the questions). So let me answer for. If his version of Calvinism is correct than:

RC Sproul is NOT saved.

JI Packer is NOT saved.

John Piper is NOT saved.

There are few if any saved pastors in the PCA, OPC, REC. or among the Reformed Baptist Churches.

C.H. Spurgeon is NOW in hell.

99.9 percent (give or take one or two) of all Calvinists are in hell or going to hell if Jonas’ understanding of the Gospel is correct. I have not yet read all of Calvin, but I have read at least 3/5 of the Institutes and a number of his letters and other writings and I think that by Jonas’s Standard he too was lost.

Few if any of the great Princeton theologians of the last century was saved. I can’t think of even one of the Church Fathers who was a Christian by the standard used by Jonas and other hyper-Calvinists like him.

Here are a couple of quotes from a hyper-Calvinist Blog that is mostly in agreement with Jonas. The Blog owner would allow that a Calvinists with my views can be saved, but others it is clear that by Jonas’ standard I am in good Calvintic company. I am going to be going to hell with some/most of the greatest Calvinists that have ever lived.

Marc Carpenter [Note: who agrees with Jonas] has anathematized certain theologians because they are tolerant of Arminianism. For example, Marc has anathematized John Robbins, Gordon Clark, John Pederson, the Protestant Reformed Church, WildBoar, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, Arthur Pink, and others... His reasoning behind this is because these men have stated in one or more of their writings that *some* Armininians are saved while still an Arminian. (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=21763#post21763 )

[From a contributor] My judgment is that preachers who go on preaching duty faith and duty repentance have not been called of God, but are running the errands of their own belly. Of the such kind was Charles H Spurgeon, and many others past & present. This type is only one kind of Satan called preachers. (Harold)

[Blog owner response] Thank you Harald for so eloquently explaining what I have been struggling to convey. I must admit that you portrayed in one paragraph the truth much better than I did with my incoherent rambling! I agree with you that duty-faith is an error that is VERY serious. So much so that if people really believe the logical implications of such teaching, they have no knowledge of grace. It is heresy. It goes hand in hand with common grace, free offer preaching, "two wills" of God teaching, denial of sovereign reprobation, etc.... What I can't figure out is why Charles is so willing to defend it when he trashes the rest as dung as we rightfully should. (http://forums.5solas.org/showthread.php?postid=24976#post24977)

I will keep to the Gospel of Christ which was the Gospel that Calvin. Augustine, the Hodge’s of Princeton, CH Spurgeon, RC Sproul, Greg Bahnsen, John Piper, ad infinitum…

Jonas, and all who agree with him, are teaching, not only a false Calvinism but a greatly distorted Gospel as well.

I will respond to particulars soon as work and time allows.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Jon_]

Jonas, holds to a deviant branch of Calvinism known as hyper-Calvinism and to a subsection of hypers that have fittingly been tagged by the folks at Monergism.com as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. I recommend y’all read it (especially Jon).

Yeah, Neo-Gnostic Calvinism was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

From what I gather, Jonas seems to believe that a fully Calvinistic soteriology is the mark of a truly regenerate person, moreover, that such a person will profess the same, viz. that only those with a fully Calvinistic soteriology are regenerate.

What is difficult for me is that, as you mentioned Kenith, such a stance makes almost the entire world apostate. There are only thousands, maybe tens of thousands that affirm as Jones does, which seems to question the very foundation of our faith. I seriously doubt you could find a single church where everyone upheld the doctrine that he is putting forth. Such a church would have to be absolutely rigid with their admission requirements because allowing an Arminian into the midst could potentially jeopardize the salvation of everyone present!

While I commend his commitment to polemic against the false doctrine of Arminianism, I think he oversteps the biblical bounds of Christian judgment by unilaterally declaring who is and is not regenerate.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Yeah, Neo-Gnostic Calvinism was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

From what I gather, Jonas seems to believe that a fully Calvinistic soteriology is the mark of a truly regenerate person, moreover, that such a person will profess the same, viz. that only those with a fully Calvinistic soteriology are regenerate.

What is difficult for me is that, as you mentioned Kenith, such a stance makes almost the entire world apostate. There are only thousands, maybe tens of thousands that affirm as Jones does, which seems to question the very foundation of our faith. I seriously doubt you could find a single church where everyone upheld the doctrine that he is putting forth. Such a church would have to be absolutely rigid with their admission requirements because allowing an Arminian into the midst could potentially jeopardize the salvation of everyone present!

While I commend his commitment to polemic against the false doctrine of Arminianism, I think he oversteps the biblical bounds of Christian judgment by unilaterally declaring who is and is not regenerate.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Thanks for your post Jon. Yes we all agree that Arminianism is a terrible heresy. But Jonas has gone far beyond the bounds of God's Word.

Here are some quotes from C.H. Spurgeon’s great sermon “A Defence of Calvinism.” According to Jonas this sermon proves that Spurgeon was not a Christian because Spurgeon held to a false Gospel. Jonas must believe that Spurgeon is in HELL.

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this.

I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them.

But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley.

Deo favente,
Kenith

 

[seekingpurity047]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy

 

[Jon_]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy

Yes. Anyone saved by Christ is saved indeed.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Sorry to kinda, though not really, shift the topic, but...

Say Christ saves someone who is on their death beds, then suddenly, that person dies. Without ever knowing anything about doctrine, is that person saved?

Randy

Randy,

Like the thief in the Cross next to Jesus? Yes. It is God who saves and not cognative ability or learning. If these other things are needed, than Mentally retarded people can not be saved, and perhaps even all infants that die are lost as well.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[seekingpurity047]

Randy,

Like the thief in the Cross next to Jesus? Yes. It is God who saves and not cognative ability or learning. If these other things are needed, than Mentally retarded people can not be saved, and perhaps even all infants that die are lost as well.

In Christ,
Kenith

Then, I think we just proved a very important point concerning whether an arminian is regenerate or not. The question was merely rhetorical, as I already knew the answer, but it was just one of thsoe things to prove a point, ya know. As, I do however believe that arminians should be taught sound doctrine, God will surely make everyone a calvinist in eternity, surely.

Randy