Faith...

[jonas3]

You seem to misunderstand what I meant. God changes to man's heart to make them WILLING to accept Him. God makes man willing. There is such thing as man's will.

Im sure that i posted this before, but read it again!

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/freewill_chantry.html

Randy

I think it is better to say that God changes a man’s heart; thereby, causing him to go unto Christ, and to walk in His statues. (Eze 36:27) God changes a man’s heart so that he is willingly "dragged" to Him (Jn 6:44). It is not a forceful “dragging”, for God’s people are certainly made willing as you said, but I would not say, “willing to accept Him”, but rather, “willing to follow Him”. As it is written, “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power…” – Ps 110:3. John 10:27 says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me”.

-jonas

 

[jonas3]

Now you sound like Vincent Cheung! "All syllogisms lead to God."

I never said that, implied it, or believe it.

Here's a Scripture for you, Jonas, but just as I do not accept your premises, you likely will not accept mine, which makes this all rather fruitless.

Just so it is clear. I will reiterate the premises that you do not accept.

Jon does not accept: 1. “All who believe a false gospel are not saved.” Therefore, he suggests that there are many paths to God, and that the false gospel preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormon’s, Catholic’s, Arminians, etc, does not show them to be lost (i.e. not saved) because they supposedly, “call upon the name of the Lord” in his view. Jon believes that if the true gospel be hid, that’s ok, it may be hid to one that is not lost; therefore, he calls the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul a liar when it was said, “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost” – 2Cor 4:3.

Jon does not accept: 2. “Arminianism is a false gospel.” Therefore, he does not understand the true gospel, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone towards His people alone. True faith professes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation, and that there is nothing left to do on the part of the sinner since the salvific work of Christ was finished on the cross. Now, he might say that Arminianism is a false gospel, but he will not call it accursed, nor will he say that those who profess it are unregenerate; therefore, it isn’t really all that false, nor can true Christians identify false professors since we really can’t know anything by their fruit (i.e. doctrine). He’ll just call it a, “dangerous error” that immature “Christians” can profess and still be currently saved (i.e. regenerate). Since in his view they, “call upon the name of the Lord”, they are not lost when believing in damnable accursed blasphemy. In Jon’s view, there are no “damnable heresies”, just so long as you, “call upon the name of the Lord”.

(

Rom. 10:13 AV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So this is the verse that you use to prove that Arminians are brothers in Christ! Wow, so the list of doctrines you have in your signature: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, etc, obviously mean nothing to you since they never get applied to your understanding.

Here’s a question, who exactly can call upon the name of the Lord? Furthermore, think about this verse,

“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” – 1Cor 12:3.

However, many people say that Jesus is the Lord. Are we to conclude that they’re all brothers in Christ? So anyone in the world without exception who says the words, “Jesus is the Lord”, is now your brother in Christ? The devil would make minced meat of this person in no time.

-jonas

 

[jonas3]

Alright, if you must.

First of all, regarding the Galatians, they were already said by Paul to be duped into believing this other gospel: "I marvel that you are so soon removed away unto another Gospel." I suppose that in your reading of the Scriptures Paul should have said: "I mavel that you have lost your salvation and will never get it back oh foolish Galatians." Too bad for them. Of course, you must disavow any claim to the Preservation or Perserverance of the saints.

Secondly, regarding the citation from 2 John, it is specifically identified by John what the doctrine of Christ is of which one must confess: "many deceivers have entered this world which confess not that Jesus has come in the flesh." It says nothing here about being able to properly articulate the entire gospel. These people are further said to be "anti-Christs." Given your insistence that Arminians are not saved and proof given by these verses, I'd expect you to call anyone who can't regurgitate your gospel to be declared an anti-Christ.

They were being lead towards the false gospel of conditional works based salvation by the “false brethren” (Gal 2:4) (i.e. those who were transformed into so called “ministers of righteousness”); however, it does not say or imply that the born-again Christians in Galatia professed a belief in a false gospel, or that they trusted in their own works for righteousness sake (i.e. the false gospel). Paul was exhorting them not to listen to those who brought a false gospel, or to do the things that the false gospel proponents were suggesting, which is the same reason why Titus did not get circumcised (see Gal 2:3-4). Anyway, please read,


"www" DOT "outsidethecamp" DOT "org/galatians.htm"


-jonas

 

[Jon_]

Okay, Jonas, since you seem intent on pursuing this, let's.

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.

Define "believe," "false gospel," and "saved."

2. Arminianism is a false gospel.

Define "Arminianism."

Anything less than Scriptural deduction is unacceptable.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Outside the Camp's "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame": http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy.htm



Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

Okay, Jonas, since you seem intent on pursuing this, let's.


Define "believe," "false gospel," and "saved."


Define "Arminianism."

Anything less than Scriptural deduction is unacceptable.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You already know the definitions. Perhaps you should just seriously think about my post instead. I pray that you would be caused to hear the truth.

I will state this one thing, although if you read my posts I have repeatedly said it and even said it in my last post to you. By "saved", I mean "regenerated" (i.e. born again). A person is "saved", when they are regenerated. A person is "not saved", when they are not regenerated. Once a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God he or she is always regenerate (i.e. saved (i.e. the Holy Spirit never departs after regeneration)), and he or she will NEVER (not one time) profess a false gospel (i.e. say that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, or that salvation is somehow conditioned on the work of the sinner, etc.)

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

You already know the definitions.

I do, but it is clear you do not.

Unless you give me a Scripturally deduced defintion of "false gospel" that corroborates your ignominious claims, your comments are like the passing of the wind.

My sincere advice from one to another, stay far, far away from Outside the Camp. Any person who calls The Trinity Foundation and John Robbins heterodox is likely themselves simply outright extreme.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

I do, but it is clear you do not.

Unless you give me a Scripturally deduced defintion of "false gospel" that corroborates your ignominious claims, your comments are like the passing of the wind.

My sincere advice from one to another, stay far, far away from Outside the Camp. Any person who calls The Trinity Foundation and John Robbins heterodox is likely themselves simply outright extreme.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

A false gospel is anything and everything that is not the true gospel. What one really needs to know is the true gospel, and then one will be able to identify the false gospel. Therefore, it is no strange thing to me that you need me to define (again) what a "false gospel" is, seeing that you do not know the true gospel.

Any "sincere" advice that you give is a lie, because you are a liar, and the truth is not in you.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1Jn 2:4.

-jonas

 

[CCWoody]

They were being lead towards the false gospel of conditional works based salvation by the “false brethren” (Gal 2:4) (i.e. those who were transformed into so called “ministers of righteousness”); however, it does not say or imply that the born-again Christians in Galatia professed a belief in a false gospel, or that they trusted in their own works for righteousness sake (i.e. the false gospel). Paul was exhorting them not to listen to those who brought a false gospel, or to do the things that the false gospel proponents were suggesting, which is the same reason why Titus did not get circumcised (see Gal 2:3-4). Anyway, please read,


"www" DOT "outsidethecamp" DOT "org/galatians.htm"


-jonas

Face it, you simply have to IGNORE the plain wording of the passage: "I marvel that you are so soon removed away unto another gospel...." This is the plain wording of the verse.

Say what you want; squirm like a worm on a hook. The fact is YOU must rewrite the verse to support your horrible doctrine.

BTW, I notice that you simply dropped 2 John and ignored my reply. Don't think I don't find that amusing.

 

[Jon_]

A false gospel is anything and everything that is not the true gospel. What one really needs to know is the true gospel, and then one will be able to identify the false gospel. Therefore, it is no strange thing to me that you need me to define (again) what a "false gospel" is, seeing that you do not know the true gospel.

The reason you cannot define false gospel is because you do not know what the true gospel is. A false gospel is simply that: the antithesis of the true gospel. Since you are simply dodging the point and thus showing your arguments are perched on nothing but air instead of solid premises, you show yourself to be a fool.

Any "sincere" advice that you give is a lie, because you are a liar, and the truth is not in you.

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1Jn 2:4.

In the name of Christ I rebuke you for your slanderous comments! Now show yourself to be a true believer and beg my forgiveness for your hateful accusation. Otherwise, saunter out of here that the truth of you might be known.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CCWoody]

Outside the Camp's "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame": http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy.htm



Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

neo-gnostic narcisism through the putting down of some really good Christians.

 

[AndOne]

1. All who believe a false gospel are not saved.
2. Arminianism is a false gospel.
3. Thus, all who believe Arminianism are not saved.

If by "Arminianism" you mean that someone who holds to "works-based" salvation isn't saved - then I agree with you.

However if by "Arminianism" you mean someone who doesn't hold to TULIP then I would definately have to disagree with you.

I have come across quite a few folks who just can't accept the doctrines of TULIP for one reason or another - but who do hold to the basic soteriological belief that there is no way you can earn your way to heaven or gain favor with God. Personally, I can accept someone who doesn't believe in predestination as a brother so long as he is not relying on himself or his own good works for salvation. The litmus test for me - ultimately - is what one believes concerning "perseverence of the saints." If they believe that you can loose your salvation - then it is a clear indication (to me at least) that they do not understand or accept God's grace.

I find that most people who fall into this category simply haven't put forth the time and energy to study the 5-points, and immediately shelve it because at first glance it seems bizzare to them - or they are to pig-headed to embrace it (in spite of scriptural support) for one reason or another - yet they still believe in the security of the believer.

Now,

I personally don't have a problem with the Trinity Foundation or John Robbins for that matter - though I definately have issues (obviously) with a lot of what they put out. Does it mean I think they are all going to hell because I disagree with them at times - absolutely not.

I don't understand the name calling going on and the judgemental stand of condemning people to hell who are willing to embrace "some" arminians as fellow christians. I especially don't understand one calvinist doing it to another.

 

[Jon_]

I personally don't have a problem with the Trinity Foundation or John Robbins for that matter - though I definately have issues (obviously) with a lot of what they put out. Does it mean I think they are all going to hell because I disagree with them at times - absolutely not.

I don't understand the name calling going on and the judgemental stand of condemning people to hell who are willing to embrace "some" arminians as fellow christians. I especially don't understand one calvinist doing it to another.

That's just the thing! This guy and his source for this poison (outsidethecamp.org) think that the Trinity Foundation is heretical because they affirm that some "Arminians" (not all Arminians believe in works-based salvation--many if not most are inconsistent in their soteriology) can be saved. For them, that is evidence that John Robbins is an unregenerate heretic! Can you believe that?

The Trinity Foundation is among the most conservative groups out there, for a group to come along and charge them with heterodoxy is to single themselves out as extreme.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

That's just the thing! This guy and his source for this poison (outsidethecamp.org) think that the Trinity Foundation is heretical because they affirm that some "Arminians" (not all Arminians believe in works-based salvation--many if not most are inconsistent in their soteriology) can be saved. For them, that is evidence that John Robbins is an unregenerate heretic! Can you believe that?

The Trinity Foundation is among the most conservative groups out there, for a group to come along and charge them with heterodoxy is to single themselves out as extreme.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

It is amazing. I find Robbins to be a bit gruff and unkind to fellow believers with which he disagrees, but heretical - NEVER.

Silly little movements like the one Jonas has been sucked into come and go all the time, but the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ continues forward.

Jonas is still young so he may yet, by God's Grace, come to understand the true gracious Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that he does. The way of the transgressor is hard, and such a distorted understanding of the Gospel, like the one he now holds, will lead only to misery.

Coram Deo,
Kenith