Faith...

[jonas3]

I suppose this depends on your definition of "love." God most certainly bestows blessings and does good for the evil and unjust in the form of kindnesses and favor through nature (Mt. 5:43-48). I think we are called to show the same kindness and blessings toward the reprobate. If we are called to love all and thus be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, does it not follow that God loves all men (at least in some sense)?

Please consider all that I have said...

God does not love the reprobate in anyway, nor does he desire to save them. If God had a desire to save them, then they would be saved. God does not have desires that He cannot fulfill, for He is the sovereign God of the universe who does whatsoever He pleases. God only has love for His elect, and even they were enemies to God before they were regenerated. As it is written,

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." - Ro 5:10.

The blessings that the reprobate receive in this life only lead to their destruction (every single one of them). They are made to be destroyed, and everything God gives them only hardens them further. Check out the Scripture references in relation to the section quoted above, which were: [Psa 2:4-5; 5:5-6; 11:5; 73:11-12; 92:7; Pro 3:32-33; 11:20; 12:2; 16:4-5; 17:15; Joh 3:16; 15:22; 17:9; Rom 9:13; 1Ti 2:4; 1Pe 2:8; 1Jo 2:2; 4:10]). Nevertheless, as it is written,

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" - Ps 92:7.

Vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction (Ro 9:22). Take for example what has been written of Judas, that wicked son of perdition,

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." - Mat 26:24.

Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him? Was it a blessing for him to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Indeed, Christians are to love their enemies, but loving their enemy's means that they don't speak peace to them! I don't love my enemies by telling them they are regenerate and fit for the kingdom, when in fact they prove themselves to be wicked blasphemers. I would hate them if I told them that they should be at peace with God when they are currently lost. Christians are commanded to love (i.e. do good unto) all men and seek to live peaceably with all men (i.e. Christians never seek to harm anyone); however, is this kindness a blessing to the reprobate? It is written,

Romans 12:17-21
"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21

These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate, for they only increased their guilt towards God. Gods' people hate what God hates; therefore, they hate the false gospel of the unregenerate, as well as those who profess it; however, this in no way contradicts the command that Christians love their enemies. Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them (i.e. regenerate them). As it is written, "21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." - Ps 139:21-22, and this "hatred" does no evil thing unto them.

I do understand that God shows hatred toward the reprobate in the form of judgment and wrath and love toward the elect in the form of mercy and grace, but are you saying that all God's motives for "loving" the reprobate are intended only to promote further sinful rebellion in them?

It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite.

As written above, God does not love the reprobate in anyway, and yes, as stated above all of the blessings that the reprobates receive in this life lead only to their destruction. The supposed blessings that the reprobates receive in this life do not help them one bit in the flames of hell, for it is only fuel for their destruction.

"f. God uses the preaching of the gospel as a special means of hardening the reprobate. [Isa 6:9-12; Mat 13:13-15; Mar 4:11-12; 2Co 2:14-16]"

Right, the denial of "common grace" and the "sincere offer." I too reject the "sincere offer" of the gospel, finding it to be dangerous Arminian error.

I do not think you do firmly believe it. Although you say that you reject it as a, "dangerous Arminian error", your statements above actually show that you do not reject it because you think that God shows "love" (i.e. "common grace") to the reprobate. For example you stated above, "It seems to be a far stretch to read this text to mean that God shows these favors to all kinds of men, but that only the good and just are loved while the evil and unjust are hated. This inference is not made in the passage in Matthew, indeed just the opposite." So if the Matthew passage is showing the opposite (i.e. that God shows love to the evil and unjust), then how can you now say that it is a "dangerous Arminian error"? Furthermore, and what do you mean when you say that it is a, "dangerous Arminian error"? It can only be dangerous if those who believe it are unregenerate, or if those who think that others are regenerate while believing it. However, you do not feel that you can judge someone to be presently unregenerate by their confession, so I see why you stumble on this. Christians are commanded to separate from unbelievers, and how do Christians know who the unbelievers are? (see Mat 7:17-20, and Lk 6:45 for starters).

Let me ask you this, is it sinful to partake of the Lord's Supper with any who do not profess the doctrines of grace? If so, then I could not even participate at church. Moreover, I realize I should not be at the church I am, but I made commitments prior to knowing better and I believe that I should uphold them.

Christians are not to fellowship in worship with anyone but believers (i.e. those who have obtained like precious faith (2Pet 1:1)). To fellowship with unbelievers is to call them brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why God has commanded that Christians be separate from unbelievers in order to witness to them (i.e. by being separate from them Christians are telling them that they ARE unbelievers (i.e. unregenerate)). Christians call people their brothers and sisters in Christ ONLY after they have stated their belief in the true gospel, and only if they do not contradict this belief by some other heretical doctrine. This is why Christians are commanded to, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." – Jn 7:24. Christians are commanded to judge who unbelievers are based on their doctrine; and therefore, Christians do not fellowship with those who bring not the doctrine of Christ (please read 2Jn 1:9-11). To clarify, Christians are NOT commanded to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge someone to be going to hell (1Cor 2:15)); however, Christians are absolutely commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not (i.e. regenerate vs. unregenerate) based on that persons doctrine at that point in time (i.e. I say, "at that point in time", because God may very well regenerate that person later on in their life and give them the knowledge of the gospel). This righteous judgment is required of Christians so that they will properly separate themselves from unbelievers as they are commanded to do. Christians will declare the gospel unto all men, but Christians will not allow unbelievers into the fellowship of believers, since that is unbiblical. Therefore, Christians assemble together with those who believe the true gospel, which I might add is a very small number. Nonetheless, Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in HIS name, there He is in the midst of them (Mat 18:20). Is Jesus in the midst of the assemblies of believers and unbelievers? Do unbelievers gather together in His name? To conclude, God has blown His trumpet, "Come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4).

Furthermore, when you say that you realize that you should not be at the church that you are at, but that you have made, "commitments prior to knowing better", you have made your circumstances your god. You reject the commandment of God, that you may be ruled by your circumstances.

-jonas

 

[seekingpurity047]

Uuuh... I think, jonas, that you are missing a very important aspect here. We, as believers, do not know who are the reprobate and who are the elect, and I think that's why God commands us to love, it's to love in the sense of spreading the gospel, fulfilling the great commission, so taht those that are elect, which may be our enemies at the moment, are saved. For it says in Ephesians 5:1-2

"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Don't you understand the way that God works to fulfill His will? He uses other people to attend to His will, so that the elect may be saved, and that there may be glory to His name. Love is more than you say it actually is. If Jesus intended for us to think "Do good to your enemies" rather than "Love your enemies" that He would have simply told us to do good to them ONLY. But love is so much more than doing good to them. Love is something from the heart. It's compassion for people, no matter how much they hate God. It's to love them the way that God loved us even before we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Why do we actually feel compassion for these people? Because we don't know who the elect are, so we have to love them the way that Christ also loved us, even before we were regenerated by His awesome sovereignty. That's why we actually love people, because we don't know what God might do. Like, when we weren't believers, we had no idea that He was goign to save us, but the things that the other christians did around you showed you God's love, for that was God's will. To show you His love through them. Maybe that's how He changed your heart. That's what He did for me.

Randy

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

God will surely make everyone a calvinist in eternity, surely.

Randy

Amen!!!

In Christ,
KEnith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Uuuh... I think, jonas, that you are missing a very important aspect here. We, as believers, do not know who are the reprobate and who are the elect, and I think that's why God commands us to love, it's to love in the sense of spreading the gospel, fulfilling the great commission, so taht those that are elect, which may be our enemies at the moment, are saved. For it says in Ephesians 5:1-2

"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Don't you understand the way that God works to fulfill His will? He uses other people to attend to His will, so that the elect may be saved, and that there may be glory to His name. Love is more than you say it actually is. If Jesus intended for us to think "Do good to your enemies" rather than "Love your enemies" that He would have simply told us to do good to them ONLY. But love is so much more than doing good to them. Love is something from the heart. It's compassion for people, no matter how much they hate God. It's to love them the way that God loved us even before we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Why do we actually feel compassion for these people? Because we don't know who the elect are, so we have to love them the way that Christ also loved us, even before we were regenerated by His awesome sovereignty. That's why we actually love people, because we don't know what God might do. Like, when we weren't believers, we had no idea that He was goign to save us, but the things that the other christians did around you showed you God's love, for that was God's will. To show you His love through them. Maybe that's how He changed your heart. That's what He did for me.

Randy

And again: Amen!!

Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Jonas,
Since you did not answer the questions I tried to give the answers you would give.

Did I get the answers correct as to the salvation of Sproul, Packer, Spurgeon, JC Ryle, the Hodges, John Calvin, most if not every pastor in the PCA, OPC, REC, most Reformed Baptist Churches and all the Fathers of the early Church.

Are they all now in hell or on the way to hell (like me)? A simple yes or no should do it.

Deo Vindice,
Kenith

 

[PropheticEvangelist]

God will surely make everyone a Calvinist in glory, surely

Thank God that will certainly never happen!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Thank God that will certainly never happen!

HTis is an example of not following the Rules. You have lots of room in the

Spirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic
Forum, because that is what you are (it is like your own home). You have to be polite here because you enter as a guest. I can not go into your that forum acting like you do her, because it is not allowed and I too would be banned.

FOLLOW the RULES. They are not that hard to follow.

In Christ,
Kenth

 

[JJB]

Now I see why it is called hyper-Calvinism. It goes beyond what is taught. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

You learn something new everyday. Sometimes you relearn the same lesson: it is essential to be in communion with the One and follow His leading only.

 

[PropheticEvangelist]

HTis is an example of not following the Rules. You have lots of room in the

Spirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic
Forum, because that is what you are (it is like your own home). You have to be polite here because you enter as a guest. I can not go into your that forum acting like you do her, because it is not allowed and I too would be banned.

FOLLOW the RULES. They are not that hard to follow.

In Christ,
Kenth

How did I not follow the rules?

I simply made a correct statement!

 

[JJB]

What was the OP again? Oh, yeah, here it is:

If we are saved by grace, then faith must be a work, right?

Randy

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Looking at the record, PropheticEvangelist has had 14 posts. 8 in Semper, 6 in regional and non-Christian topics. This username has been around since November 2003, but has been idle for nearly two years. Now, in 2003 all posts were pretty vanilla, but in 2005 all posts are recent and are here in Semper.

Isn't that interesting? I can't help but wonder if JamesMichael or PentecostalEvangelist are familiar with this PropheticEvangelist who has just jumped out of nowhere to harass Semper again... I mean for the first time. I'm willing to bet that this troll, beta version 3.1, will say some hateful things of other Christians, refuse to provide biblical support for his claims, demand that we do, not read our support, accuse us of hateful things again, and end up on my ignore list... again.

Hmm, JamesMichael has been removed from the forums. He appears to be banned for some reason that is obviously not his fault. Coincidence? I think not!

 

[Jon_]

I do not think you do firmly believe it. Although you say that you reject it as a, "dangerous Arminian error", your statements above actually show that you do not reject it because you think that God shows "love" (i.e. "common grace") to the reprobate.

No, I certainly do. I firmly believe that God shows the reprobate love knowing that they will only be hardened by it, thus incurring further wrath upon themselves. The Bible is clear that God shows love in the form of blessings and kindnesses to all men. His intentions by these are certainly different in the sense that his love is salvific toward the elect and only a love despite his repugnance toward the reprobate. The true offer of the Gospel is only extended by the Spirit to the elect and truly only heard by them, but God nevertheless loves all men, even though he does not decree their salvation.

Christians are not to fellowship in worship with anyone but believers (i.e. those who have obtained like precious faith (2Pet 1:1)). To fellowship with unbelievers is to call them brothers and sisters in Christ, which is why God has commanded that Christians be separate from unbelievers in order to witness to them (i.e. by being separate from them Christians are telling them that they ARE unbelievers (i.e. unregenerate)). Christians call people their brothers and sisters in Christ ONLY after they have stated their belief in the true gospel, and only if they do not contradict this belief by some other heretical doctrine. This is why Christians are commanded to, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." – Jn 7:24. Christians are commanded to judge who unbelievers are based on their doctrine; and therefore, Christians do not fellowship with those who bring not the doctrine of Christ (please read 2Jn 1:9-11). To clarify, Christians are NOT commanded to judge the eternal state of an individual (i.e. judge someone to be going to hell (1Cor 2:15)); however, Christians are absolutely commanded to judge someone to be a Christian or not (i.e. regenerate vs. unregenerate) based on that persons doctrine at that point in time (i.e. I say, "at that point in time", because God may very well regenerate that person later on in their life and give them the knowledge of the gospel). This righteous judgment is required of Christians so that they will properly separate themselves from unbelievers as they are commanded to do. Christians will declare the gospel unto all men, but Christians will not allow unbelievers into the fellowship of believers, since that is unbiblical. Therefore, Christians assemble together with those who believe the true gospel, which I might add is a very small number. Nonetheless, Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in HIS name, there He is in the midst of them (Mat 18:20). Is Jesus in the midst of the assemblies of believers and unbelievers? Do unbelievers gather together in His name? To conclude, God has blown His trumpet, "Come out of her my people" (Rev 18:4).

I would think that, according to your views, any one who shared the Lord's Supper with any but a Calvinist Christian who demanded nothing but a full Calvinist confession of faith would be shown to be unregenerate because they willingly allowed unbelievers to partake of the accidents in their midst.

If that is true, then you can probably count on your hands the number of non-apostate churches.

Furthermore, when you say that you realize that you should not be at the church that you are at, but that you have made, "commitments prior to knowing better", you have made your circumstances your god. You reject the commandment of God, that you may be ruled by your circumstances.

Would you say that if a Christian marries an unbeliever that they are free to divorce when they realize the error of their ways?

My tenure at this church will be over soon enough, but it should be readily apparent that no temporal assembly will ever be perfect. All congregations have their faults. I would be utterly flabbergasted to find a pastor within 500 miles of my church preaching the Gospel that I believe with my whole heart is correct.

Actually, there is one. The Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Redlands, CA. They are only around 472 miles away from me. Were there a Protestant Reformed Church available to me, that's where I would be. Until then, I can only trust that God will move to a church body in which I will be of service to him.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[PropheticEvangelist]

Looking at the record, PropheticEvangelist has had 14 posts. 8 in Semper, 6 in regional and non-Christian topics. This username has been around since November 2003, but has been idle for nearly two years. Now, in 2003 all posts were pretty vanilla, but in 2005 all posts are recent and are here in Semper.

Isn't that interesting? I can't help but wonder if JamesMichael or PentecostalEvangelist are familiar with this PropheticEvangelist who has just jumped out of nowhere to harass Semper again... I mean for the first time. I'm willing to bet that this troll, beta version 3.1, will say some hateful things of other Christians, refuse to provide biblical support for his claims, demand that we do, not read our support, accuse us of hateful things again, and end up on my ignore list... again.

Hmm, JamesMichael has been removed from the forums. He appears to be banned for some reason that is obviously not his fault. Coincidence? I think not!

I forgive you.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Will you at least affirm or deny what I have said?

 

[PropheticEvangelist]

Will you at least affirm or deny what I have said?

Coffeeswirls, I will readily afirm this, I am wrong, always have been wrong, always will be wrong, you are right, always have been right, and always will be right about anything and, everything.

I have absolutely no inteligence whatsoever.

Now does that satisfy all of you?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

You have been told several times what we adhere to, what we believe, what we do not believe, that you do not have to believe as we do (calvinism) in order to be saved. You have not listened a single time. You have demanded Biblical proof to calvinism, which you have ignored. You have failed to provide any proof to your claims, and have even said that you are looking for Bible passages that will agree with you.

Now you give your typical empty apology that smacks of sarcasm and expect that to be "good enough" for us? You are a liar and a slanderer and you knowingly abuse the privledges of these forums over and over. You are in a forum where you must be a Christian to post. One concept of Christianity is sanctification, being conformed to the image of Christ. This does not mean that you do not sin, but it does imply that at some point you accept the fact that you are required by God to be truthful and sincere in your faith. You do the opposite. If I were Erwin, I would take your IP and ban it, not just your next name that you can pull from a hat.

Since your last name has been banned, there is now an open slot in my ignore list for the current name. I have no doubt that I will be putting your next name in there in a short matter of days or weeks.

 

[jonas3]

No, I certainly do. I firmly believe that God shows the reprobate love knowing that they will only be hardened by it, thus incurring further wrath upon themselves. The Bible is clear that God shows love in the form of blessings and kindnesses to all men. His intentions by these are certainly different in the sense that his love is salvific toward the elect and only a love despite his repugnance toward the reprobate. The true offer of the Gospel is only extended by the Spirit to the elect and truly only heard by them, but God nevertheless loves all men, even though he does not decree their salvation.

No, you certainly do not. You just articulated the very definition of "common grace", or "universal love", or as you put it, "kindnesses to all men". All of these phrases are simply different ways of expressing the same thing. Not only this, you took one step closer to the "common grace" proponents by suggesting that God has different "senses" of His love. You stated that God has a special salvific love towards His elect, and a different non-salvific love towards the reprobate. This IS the very definition of "common grace", which is what you supposedly call a, "dangerous Arminian error". God is infinitely holy, righteous, and just; thus, He does not show grace or “love” at the expense of His holiness, righteousness, or justice. God only shows loves towards His elect through the work of Jesus Christ, and since the work of Jesus Christ is not universal in any sense; therefore, God does not show any love towards the non-elect reprobate. The so called blessings that fall upon the heads of the reprobate are only a curse onto them that cause them to flourish in order that they may be destroyed (Ps 92:7).

I would think that, according to your views, any one who shared the Lord's Supper with any but a Calvinist Christian who demanded nothing but a full Calvinist confession of faith would be shown to be unregenerate because they willingly allowed unbelievers to partake of the accidents in their midst.

If that is true, then you can probably count on your hands the number of non-apostate churches.

For starters, I am not a "Calvinist", for if I were a "Calvinist", then I probably would agree with you. (Note to others reading this post. I believe in the doctrines of grace; however, I do not believe in them in the way in which "Calvinist" do.) Secondly, the only requirement that I have made for fellowship of the believers is that they ARE a believer!! Who is to be considered a believer? Namely, one who believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is this some new doctrine foreign to your ears? A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church. I call them hypocrites because they say that they believe in separating from unbelievers and will give lip service to the Scripture all day long, but they WILL NOT come out. Interesting. They WILL NOT come out, because they do not have His Word abiding in them.

Would you say that if a Christian marries an unbeliever that they are free to divorce when they realize the error of their ways?

A Christian (i.e. not a professor of “Christianity”) will never marry an unbeliever.

My tenure at this church will be over soon enough, but it should be readily apparent that no temporal assembly will ever be perfect. All congregations have their faults. I would be utterly flabbergasted to find a pastor within 500 miles of my church preaching the Gospel that I believe with my whole heart is correct.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked…" – Jer 17:9.

Actually, there is one. The Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Redlands, CA. They are only around 472 miles away from me. Were there a Protestant Reformed Church available to me, that's where I would be. Until then, I can only trust that God will move to a church body in which I will be of service to him.

So you leave one "church" that serves an idol-god who cannot save, to join another "church" that serves an idol-god who cannot save. Truly, I do pray that God would cause you to believe the truth.

-jonas

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church.
-jonas

Jonas,

So it seems that the ONLY person that Jon can worship with, and not be an apostate himself, is you. I am curious, can you name five other REAL Christians (by your standard). If YOUR standard were correct than you would be the first Christian I've ever meet. Your views would be laughable if they were not so sad.

Do you think any of the Reformers were Christians? I can't think of one of the Reformers who was a Christian by your standard.

How about the Church Fathers? I've been reading them and as for as I can tell by your standard none of the Fathers were Christians.

Do you believe Peter and Paul were Christians?

I have meet a few hyper Calvinists, but you are the hyperist hyper-Calvinist that I have ever meet. Since meeting you I have found a few more like you on the web.

What you believe would be laughable if it were not so sad. I pray the Lord will soften you heart, dampen your pride and bring you to Himself and his people the Church.

If you are not a Calvinist, as you now admit, you are not supposed to be debating on this forum. Hummm?

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Jon_]

A modern day "church" by definition is apostate, seeing how they openly invite in unbelievers, which is unbiblical. Therefore, only hypocrites “attend” church. I call them hypocrites because they say that they believe in separating from unbelievers and will give lip service to the Scripture all day long, but they WILL NOT come out. Interesting. They WILL NOT come out, because they do not have His Word abiding in them.

Ah, so you're a separatist, too. That makes sense. Not even Christ himself can conform to your standards, which means neither can you. Your beliefs are utterly inconsistent. Where did you come up with this stuff?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CCWoody]

Boy all this talk about apostate churches is making me feel all tingly and ecumenical.