Faith and Obedience

[Tree of Life]

I suppose faith alone is not biblical. If you can show us otherwise, please do.

Let's put this to bed before we explore whether faith and obedience are distinct and unrelated things.

When I say "faith alone", I do not mean mere intellectual agreement that the Bible is true. I mean a living trust and dependence upon God and love for God. A delight in God and worship of God. That's saving faith. Such a faith necessarily produces what Paul calls "the obedience of faith".

So faith and obedience are related so closely that they should be thought of as two perspectives on the same reality. To separate them would be strange. James says that faith without obedience is not real faith. Paul says that anything that doesn't come from faith is sin - even if it looks like obedience.

Why do you separate what God has joined together?

 

[concretecamper]

When I say "faith alone", I do not mean mere intellectual agreement that the Bible is true. I mean a living trust and dependence upon God and love for God. A delight in God and worship of God. That's saving faith. Such a faith necessarily produces what Paul calls "the obedience of faith".

So faith and obedience are related so closely that they should be thought of as two perspectives on the same reality. So separate them would be strange. James says that faith without obedience is not real faith. Paul says that anything that doesn't come from faith is sin - even if it looks like obedience.

Why do you separate what God has joined together?

So are you saying faith alone is not biblical? It seems that way becasue you offered no proof that it is. As I said above, we need to pin this down to move on.

 

[Tree of Life]

So are you saying faith alone is not biblical? As I said above, we need to pin this.down to move on.

It depends on what you mean by "faith alone". If what you mean by "faith alone" is mere intellectual assent alone, then of course this is unbiblical. But justification by faith alone has never meant this!

 

[charsan]

I suppose faith alone is not biblical

Exactly, it's not. The idea of Faith alone is a non Biblical straw man

 

[Tree of Life]

Exactly, it's not. The idea of Faith alone is a non Biblical straw man

I fear that what Catholics often attack as "faith alone" is indeed a straw man.

 

[Oldmantook]

So you agree that faith and obedience are not really two separate things?

They are separate as BOTH are required for eternal life. One can believe in Jesus for salvation but unless one remains obedient, eternal life is not to be had. They are really two sides of the same coin as you cannot have one without the other. Outward obedience is the objective measure of one's inward faith.

 

[charsan]

I fear that what Catholics often attack as "faith alone" is indeed a straw man.

Not Catholic and still "faith alone" is of no consequence since it is really a made up idea. We are saved by God's grace alone through faith that is never alone

 

[Tree of Life]

They are separate as BOTH are required for eternal life. One can believe in Jesus for salvation but unless one remains obedient, eternal life is not to be had. They are really two sides of the same coin as you cannot have one without the other. Outward obedience is the objective measure of one's inward faith.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that they are two sides of the same coin. I agree with that. But you also say that one can believe and yet not obey. How can one believe and not obey if belief and obedience are two sides of the same coin?

 

[concretecamper]

It depends on what you mean by "faith alone". If what you mean by "faith alone" is mere intellectual assent alone, then of course this is unbiblical

So what definition of faith alone is biblical? You have yet to show us where scripture defines faith alone let alone to say that it is adequate for salvation.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not Catholic and still "faith alone" is of no consequence since it is really a made up idea. We are saved by God's grace alone through faith that is never alone

Sounds like what Martin Luther said. "We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone."

 

[charsan]

So what definition of faith alone is biblical? You have yet to show us where scripture says anything is defined as faith one let alone say that it is adequate for salvation.

Yes do show us

 

[charsan]

Sounds like what Martin Luther said. "We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone."

Except I would never say the "alone" part.

 

[Tree of Life]

So what definition of faith alone is biblical? You have yet to show us where scripture defines faith alone let alone to say that it is adequate for salvation.

Romans 3:21-25 - Paul teaches that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - Paul says we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

Galatians 3:9-10 - Paul says that we are justified by faith and the one who relies on works for justification is cursed.

These are just a few of many examples. God justifies us through the mediation of Christ which is given as a gift of grace. This grace is received by faith. But a genuine faith necessarily produces obedience.

 

[charsan]

Nothing says "alone" try again

 

[Tree of Life]

Nothing says "alone" try again

It doesn't need to say the word "alone" to establish the doctrine of Sola Fide. When we say "alone" we mean apart from meritorious works. What would you add to "faith" since Paul excludes "works of the law"?

 

[concretecamper]

Romans 3:21-25 - Paul teaches that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - Paul says we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

Galatians 3:9-10 - Paul says that we are justified by faith and the one who relies on works for justification is cursed.

These are just a few of many examples. God justifies us through the mediation of Christ which is given as a gift of grace. This grace is received by faith. But a genuine faith necessarily produces obedience.

The Mosaic Law doesn't save...we agree. So, based on your examples (which refere we can safely assume that faith alone does not save....correct?

The most compassionate philanthropist, if and atheist, is not saved. So Paul is right again

 

[charsan]

It doesn't need to say the word "alone" to establish the doctrine of Sola Fide. When we say "alone" we mean apart from meritorious works. What would you add to "faith" since Paul excludes "works of the law"?

ah, a doctrine of men

 

[Tree of Life]

The Mosaic Law doesn't save...we agree. So, based on your examples we can safely assume that faith alone does not save....correct?

I'm not sure what you mean by "faith alone". I've given you my understanding of that phrase but I don't have yours. I can't be sure that we agree until you explain what you mean.

 

[Tree of Life]

ah, a doctrine of men

Don't care to answer that question?

 

[charsan]

I think @concretecamper is doing a better job than me