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Featured Faith and Obedience

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

    Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

    Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

    To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

    My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I think Scripture puts it this way:

    If a baby is born and lies there not moving, and is not breathing, and does not move nor breath for a few weeks, it is not alive.

    "a body without breath is dead"
     
  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Are you saying that faith without works is not really faith?
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    I think you know Scripture well enough that that is not what Scripture says.
     
  5. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Hmm. But doesn't it sound like something James said?

    James 2:17 - "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

    A dead faith is not a real faith.
     
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  6. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    It's both.
     
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  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The problem is that faith which was understood to be loyalty is today mistranslated as belief.

    To really understand, just describe what really happens :
    1. Person hears that what was promised to Abraham has been fulfilled
    2. Believers can really be blessings to the world
    3. We know this because Christ was resurrected
    4. This proves that when a person picks up a cross, he will be resurrected
    5. The blessing to the world is that it will know that God is with the messenger, like Rahab knew God was with Joshua, and Nicodemus knew God was with Christ, who both picked up crosses
    6. Now the world can also pick up its crosses and do the same.
    7. As a result others will also be convinced to leave Egypt, which is a metaphor for selfish living, running away from the cross.
    No greater love hath a man than this than when he...?
     
  8. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Faith and obedience are both two different things and the same thing?
     
  9. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    You didn't say that faith and obedience are the same thing but that one follows up the other.
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I say that they are the same thing viewed from different perspectives. Do you believe that they are two different things?
     
  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Yes, I think that's an excellent way to express that (what I put in red text). I don't believe obedience is a *condition* of or for salvation - but, instead - it's a result of genuine faith. IOW....obedience flows out of genuine faith in the True God.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Good.
    And then,
    what of those who refuse to obey, but demand that God save them anyway and make great boasts about being saved forever even though they do not obey ?
     
  13. Kris Jordan

    Kris Jordan Member

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    Genuine saving faith (by grace through faith alone) will naturally produce good works. If it didn't, I would question whether salvation was actually present. But obedience is not a requirement for salvation. If it were, Jesus died in vain. If His blood wasn't sufficient to cleanse and forgive us, nothing is. He alone is the author of salvation, not = Him + us.

    I like to think of it this way: If a husband says he loves his wife (which cannot be seen because its internal within the heart and/or mind), but does nothing to express that love toward her, then does he really love her? But if he truly does love her and love is actually present within his heart, it can't help but express itself through action. So you can't have "one" without having the "other" because the "other" is a natural byproduct of the "one."

    Another way to think of it is this: If any current or past President of the United States moved into your house, would that be evidenced by anything in your house? Of course it would! It would look a bit different in places, it would function a bit different in places, it couldn't help but be different on certain levels. In other words, there would be some evidence that this President had moved in, however big or small. Likewise, when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our hearts at the moment of salvation, there will be some type of change in the way they live, think, act, or whatever. The amount of change will vary over time, but if there's no change, then I would question whether the Holy Spirit really lives inside...

    So, I definitely believe the bible is clear that we are saved by God's undeserved grace and His grace is imparted to us when we believe (faith). Good works/obedience flow out of that as a byproduct of salvation, not a requirement.
     
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  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'll leave that up to God to work out (because I'm certain He will handle that best - far better than you and I could).
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Oh, Yahuweh did work it out, and wrote about in His Word, CLEARLY. He always knew how to handle it, and taught His children how to, very perfectly.
     
  16. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    I believe we are saved by Grace alone, through faith that is not alone. As far as your question faith and obedience are two separate things
     
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  17. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

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    I think it kind of boils down to what you have made "obedience" into meaning. If it is keeping laws to you, then I think you have a problem already.

    Some of you here would be shocked to know what Augustine said about that. He basically said to love God, and do as you wish.
    Why say such a thing? Because if you truly love God, your actions will already be motivated in obedience to God's wishes.
     
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  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Someone else, recently , pointed out that Augustine was wrong on some or many things.

    Instead , look directly to Scripture, and the Father's revealing His understanding as asked, to see
    what "obedience" means, as the Father and Yahushua and the Ekklesia always said IN SCRIPTURE>
     
  19. Kris Jordan

    Kris Jordan Member

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    First, I would say God is not a fool and nobody can pull the wool over His eyes.

    Second, I don't see how that could ever be the attitude of someone who is genuinely saved after they have recognized the wretched spiritual condition they were in prior and recognized their desperate need for a Savior. Otherwise, what do they think they're being saved from?

    I think this type of attitude is reminiscent of what Hebrew 10:29 says. Very scary. And dangerous...
     
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  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so he was justified by faith and obeyed by the same faith, but he was not justified by his obedience. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God should always be considered to be acting in faith. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's will, such as the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's Law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God is what faith looks like. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to correctly guide us, so only those who has faith in God to guide us will obey His Law and be justified by that same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Law will be justified.

    To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then their teaching would be the content of the gift and participating in this training would not be doing anything to earn their gift, but rather it is what it would look like to receive their gift.

    In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Furthermore, it says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, being redeemed from our Lawlessness and being training to do good works in obedience to God's Law is the content of the gift of salvation. Participating in this training would not be doing anything to earn the gift, but rather it is what it looks like to receive the gift. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what being saved from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

    Faith can exist without obedience when someone is physically prevented from expressing their faith, such as with the thief on the cross, but if our arms and feet aren't nailed to a cross, then we don't have that excuse. Someone can give the outward appearance of obedience apart from faith in Christ, but they would be missing the point, which is why Paul considered that to be rubbish.
     
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