Faith and Obedience

[Tree of Life]

As far as your question faith and obedience are two separate things

Why do you think they are so separate?

 

[Tree of Life]

Faith without obedience is no faith at all. Even the demons believe. Belief is required (Jn 3:16) but obedience is also required (Heb 5:9).

So you agree that faith and obedience are not really two separate things?

 

[charsan]

Why do you think they are so separate?

Well not being reformed I believe people have free will always. I can have faith and decide not to do something just as jonah

 

[Tree of Life]

We should avoid coming to the conclusion that having faith is something that will lead us to obedience, sometimes we know that something is bad yet we decide to follow upon those desires. Sometimes we need prayer and fasting to look to strengthen our faith.

So faith does not necessarily lead us to obey? That's a strange view. Paul talked about the obedience of faith and said that whatever does not come from faith is sin. When Jesus rebuked his disciples it was because they were of little faith. They needed more faith.

I would say that when we disobey it's only because we disbelieve. One who does not obey does not, at least in that moment, believe. One who trusts God and believes the gospel obeys out of joy.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well not being reformed I believe people have free will always. I can have faith and decide not to do something just as jonah

Do you think that Jonah was acting in faith when he ran from God's call?

 

[charsan]

Do you think that Jonah was acting in faith when he ran from God's call?

As humans we don't always do what is the right thing yet Jonah never lost faith, not being reformed it is hard to understand calvinism. I don't even think like you do

 

[Kris Jordan]

Who was referring to someone who is genuinely saved "after they have recognized the wretched spiritual condition they were in " ? (as written, and as far as shown so far, most people NEVER realize that, or they simply usually don't care,and don't repent of that)

As written, which attitude leads to death,
and which attitude leads to life with Jesus ?
OR which attitude are you thinking ?

Hi Jeshuaslavejeff,

I think I'm getting off topic with this, but salvation itself is = being saved from our sins which are what separate us from having a relationship with God and render us eternally lost instead, which ultimately renders us the due wages of our sin, which is eternity in hell.

So I don't understand how someone can call themselves saved or think they are saved if they don't understand what they're being saved from. Perhaps therein lies the problem. But again, I think this might be getting too off-topic from the OP.

 

[concretecamper]

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone

This contention is not biblical.

But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

Just as God gives us grace so we can have the faith necessary for salvation, He gives us grace to choose (as you put it) loving obedience. Without His grace we could not have the faith, or make the choices that please Him.

 

[Not David]

I think I understand what you're saying - and it IS absolutely wrong to suggest to someone that's struggling with sin (especially if you're inferring something like an addiction) to "just have more faith", because that's an empty (and frustrating suggestion). However.....I DO believe that, at the root of that, there is some sort of faith in a lie over faith over Christ in all that (or....often it's a desire to numb the pain instead of dealing with the tremendous pain).

I still stand by the statement that faith leads to obedience (and "faith" isn't just one general thing - it's a series of things we believe that are true about God and our relationship to Him and others).

Yeah, I don't disagree that faith leads to obedience.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Do you think that Jonah was acting in faith when he ran from God's call?

No, he was acting in disobedience to God's instruction.

 

[Tree of Life]

As humans we don't always do what is the right thing yet Jonah never lost faith, not being reformed it is hard to understand calvinism

So you think that Jonah's actions were the actions of a faithful man?

Isn't it obvious that Jonah was acting in unbelief when he ran from God? He did not believe that the Ninevites deserved mercy and did not want God to be merciful to them. He did not believe that it would be good for God to show them mercy. He didn't trust God's plan.

 

[charsan]

This contention is not biblical.

Just as God gives us grace so we can have the faith necessary for salvation, He gives us grace to choose (as you put it) loving obedience. Without His grace we could not have the faith, or make the choices that please Him.

Exactly!

 

[Tree of Life]

This contention is not biblical.

Just as God gives us grace so we can have the faith necessary for salvation, He gives us grace to choose (as you put it) loving obedience. Without His grace we could not have the faith, or make the choices that please Him.

Do you suppose that faith and obedience are distinct, unrelated things?

 

[charsan]

So you think that Jonah's actions were the actions of a faithful man?

Isn't it obvious that Jonah was acting in unbelief when he ran from God? He did not believe that the Ninevites deserved mercy and did not want God to be merciful to them. He did not believe that it would be good for God to show them mercy. He didn't trust God's plan.

Yes I do and let's leave it at that.

 

[Tree of Life]

No, he was acting in disobedience to God's instruction.

Some on this thread would say that one can fully believe and disobey at the same time.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes I do and let's leave it at that.

Haha okay. I won't challenge you any further if you're feeling uncomfortable defending your position.

 

[Not David]

So faith does not necessarily lead us to obey? That's a strange view. Paul talked about the obedience of faith and said that whatever does not come from faith is sin. When Jesus rebuked his disciples it was because they were of little faith. They needed more faith.

I would say that when we disobey it's only because we disbelieve. One who does not obey does not, at least in that moment, believe. One who trusts God and believes the gospel obeys out of joy.

Is faith something we have and then we don't? Or something we have but not use?

 

[Tree of Life]

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit, isn't it because they disbelieved God? They had a choice between believing God's word or believing the lie of the devil. Wasn't their sin an act of unbelief?

 

[Tree of Life]

Is faith something we have and then we don't? Or something we have but not use?

It's something that we have imperfectly and we need more of. "I believe, help my unbelief".

 

[concretecamper]

Do you suppose that faith and obedience are distinct, unrelated things?

I suppose faith alone is not biblical. If you can show us otherwise, please do. Let's put this to bed before we explore whether faith and obedience are distinct and unrelated things. After all, I suspect the latter builds on the former.