Faith and Obedience

[mkgal1]

You still have to follow the Law of God given to Moses.

Mosaic law was fulfilled in Christ. We don't follow (nor can we!) most of the instruction given to Moses as there is no longer a Levitical priesthood (He is our high priests) or a temple (He is the temple - the chief cornerstone).

 

[Kaon]

Mosaic law was fulfilled in Christ. We don't follow (nor can we!) most of the instruction given to Moses as there is no longer a Levitical priesthood (He is our high priests) or a temple (He is the temple - the chief cornerstone).

Fulfilled doesn't mean done away with, or inert. Of course Christ fulfilled the Law:

1. He is the Word of God that was told to the prophets; when they heard "The Lord God" they were hearing the Word of God/the Redeemer/Christ.
2. There is no place in the canonical, apocryphal, or gnostic text where the Word of God, or the Most High God ever give permission to abandon the obedience to His Law.
3. The Law of Moses, as it were, was given by the Most High God; He doesn't renege on His Law or promises.
4. Obedience is how we please the Most High God, which is why by definition The Redeemer is the One He is most please with - because the Redeemer followed every letter of His Law to perfection. As Christians, we are supposed to follow the Redeemer/Christ - which means we also need to [try to] follow every letter of the Law to perfection.
5. When we fail, we have the grace afforded to us to ask for forgiveness for transgressing, and to be considered once again for Redemption. We gain an advocate and audience in from of the Most High God so that we can Live.
​

This was all prophesied as something to look forward to, but the patriarchs still knew after the Redeemer fulfilled those prophecies, they would still have to be obedient to Him - the Literal Word of God given by the Most High God.

There isn't one place in the canon, apocrypha, or Gnostics where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself ever say that we can disobey or make inactive any part of His Law. Christ never broke any law either; He is the Law and He doesn't renege on Himself.

 

[JIMINZ]

That's a modern reference source.

Look at this:

Theo Geek: The Meaning of Faith

Quote
Outside of the Bible, what is the Greek word for faith (pistis) used to mean? We're in luck... the first century Jewish historian Josephus uses it in his writings.


In his autobiography, Jospehus describes a time when he was the leader of a small army, and another group had tried to kill him. Josephus captures the enemy leader and says to him “repent and have faith in me hereafter” (Life 110). What Josephus clearly means by this is “become part of my army, and obey my commands.”


Later he speaks of a city that had turned against him, which after he has forced them into submission again, he rebukes them for revolting “from their faith in me” (Life 167). Again, he's speaking of their loyalty to him.


What exactly is the quality that Josephus is getting at? Think about his usage of the word in an army and the concept of soldiers following their leader. What is the relationship between a soldier and their commanding officer like? The solider is loyal and trusting, he follows his superiors' commands, when the captain leads the charge into battle the soldier is right there behind him following in his footsteps. The concept is one of “followingness”, obedience to orders, loyalty, faithfulness, allegiance etc. English is really missing a word to describe this quality of a soldier... the quality of “followingness”.

Well the First Century Jewish historian Josephus, uses the word faith in relation to himself, which was a Temporal faith.
Whereas the Faith used in relation to Faith in Christ is a Spiritual Faith which comes from the Father. = BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVED, BELIEVING.

However, you are free to use whatever definition for the word you choose, as for me I like BELIEVE

 

[Zonderzug]

As far as I know, the ONLY place that "faith alone" is used in the Bible, it's actually used to reject that faith alone makes one righteous.

James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.​

I think you forgot the thief on the cross. He went to Paradise without lifting a finger.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Well the First Century Jewish historian Josephus, uses the word faith in relation to himself, which was a Temporal faith.
Whereas the Faith used in relation to Faith in Christ is a Spiritual Faith which comes from the Father. = BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVED, BELIEVING.

However, you are free to use whatever definition for the word you choose, as for me I like BELIEVE

Why should the writer use a meaning different from the one in common usage of the time, considering that it's not good to make access to the meaning more difficult?

 

[Oldmantook]

I think you forgot the thief on the cross. He went to Paradise without lifting a finger.

That's because he probably couldn't lift his finger since his hand was nailed to the cross. All kidding aside, the thief on the cross similar to death bed conversions simply do not have time in left in their lives to do works which manifest saving faith. The rest of us with time left do not have such an excuse.

 

[JIMINZ]

Why should the writer use a meaning different from the one in common usage of the time, considering that its not good to make access to the meaning more difficult?

Well as we know, there are a number of shades of a word in the Greek, where in English, we have a separate word for each.

Therefore in relation to what Josephus was relating about the soldier it related to Temporal things such as Obedience, Followingness.

It's really not the same as Faith Believing

BELIEF:
BELIEVING:
GREEK:
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

So you see, it's a Spiritual thing.

I can honestly say, when I was in the Military, I did not have faith that my commander, who ever he might be, could save me.

I have complete Faith in Christ that what He has said and done to me, for me, about me is 100% for my best.

It's a Spiritual understanding in the Heart, through the Holy Spirit, not in the mind or intellect.

 

[Guojing]

That's because he probably couldn't lift his finger since his hand was nailed to the cross. All kidding aside, the thief on the cross similar to death bed conversions simply do not have time in left in their lives to do works which manifest saving faith. The rest of us with time left do not have such an excuse.

Ahh that is John Wesley, or the Methodist view of salvation.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ahh that is John Wesley, or the Methodist view of salvation.

It is the Jesus view of salvation. We are judged by our belief and works as our outward works are the tangible evidence of our inward faith. James stated that faith without works is dead.

 

[JIMINZ]

Ahh that is John Wesley, or the Methodist view of salvation.

I have a question for you.
Do you use a Western Bible or a Malaysian one?
I'm just curious.

 

[Guojing]

I have a question for you.
Do you use a Western Bible or a Malaysian one?
I'm just curious.

I don't understand what you are trying to imply with this, what don't you just say it straight?

 

[Guojing]

It is the Jesus view of salvation. We are judged by our belief and works as our outward works are the tangible evidence of our inward faith. James stated that faith without works is dead.

No, its one person's interpretation of salvation requirement.

The ascended Christ instructed the Apostle Paul to tell us Gentiles how we can get saved, and its all written in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

 

[JIMINZ]

I don't understand what you are trying to imply with this, what don't you just say it straight?

I am not trying to imply anything, I said it as straight as I could,
(I'm just curious) do you use one in your own language or do you use one in English?

Simple question don't be so defensive, not every Christian is your enemy.

 

[Guojing]

I am not trying to imply anything, I said it as straight as I could,
(I'm just curious) do you use one in your own language or do you use one in English?

Simple question don't be so defensive, not every Christian is your enemy.

Firstly there is no such thing as a Malaysian bible. I used one where the verses are written in English, are you asking for the version? Its normally KJV

 

[Bcs90]

I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

What about the opposite though? Will God grace someone with more faith for them being willingfully obedient?

 

[fhansen]

You still have to follow the Law of God given to Moses. The Redeemer never said that any of the Law previously set up was nullified, made void and/or removed.

You please the Most High God by being perfect. You become perfect through faith and obedience. Why do you think atheists have a leg to stand on when they call us hypocrites for eating bacon wrapped shrimp - while reviling homosexuals, and ignoring divorce and cross dressing? Even they understand you have to be obedient, even if they lack the faith.

Yes, since Adam man has been obligated to obedience, even as some try to make faith some kind of replacement for righteousness. Faith is the means to righteousness, because it's the means to God who, alone, can make us righteousness, because He can cause us to love, as we're willing. To the extent that we do so, we're all the more perfect, and the law is fulfilled.

The law was never abolished nor was the Old Covenant revoked even though it was made obsolete by a better one. But the New Covenant is better in that it finally provides the way to fulfill the law, the right way, in communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing'. And, again, the more we love Him, the more we obey out of our own desire-which is where He wants us.

 

[Kris Jordan]

So you think that Jonah's actions were the actions of a faithful man?

Isn't it obvious that Jonah was acting in unbelief when he ran from God? He did not believe that the Ninevites deserved mercy and did not want God to be merciful to them. He did not believe that it would be good for God to show them mercy. He didn't trust God's plan.

He was acting in disobedience to God. It's really that simple. We all experience that same type of sinful behavior ourselves at times but it doesn't mean we're not saved. That's why I'm so thankful for 1 John 1:9-10.

 

[Kaon]

Considering that his name is the Lord Jesus Christ, believing in his name implies believing we should obey him. If we believe but do not obey, we are no better than the demons.

Exactly.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.




Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:14-26​

 

[Oldmantook]

No, its one person's interpretation of salvation requirement.

The ascended Christ instructed the Apostle Paul to tell us Gentiles how we can get saved, and its all wreitten in Paul's letters to the Gentiles.

Paul wrote this to the gentile brethren in Rome:
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13
I'm sure you believe that belief is required for eternal life according to Jn 3:16. Don't you also believe that obedience is also required?
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

But how do we define obedience? Are we believing the right away? If our belief makes room for justifying sin in some way like telling others that their future sin is forgiven them (giving them the impression that they can disobey and not obey under God's grace), then we are no better than those believers who professed to do good works in his name and yet they were cast out because they worked iniquity (sin) (See Matthew 7:23). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So while a believer can have good works, if they also do evil works, they are not going to make it.

God is holy.

He cannot agree with a believer's plan of salvation that condones sin as a part of His Kingdom. That would mean God would have to agree with sin if that was the case.

Side Note:

Yes, I am aware that those believers in Matthew 7:23 did not ever know the Lord. This is because they never accepted the truth we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments; For the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them (See 1 John 2:3-4). A person cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.