Fact for creationists

[Krak]

Here is a fact for creationists:

We can see objects up to 13.7 billion lightyears away. This has been proved with mathematical equations. So what? you may ask.

According to creationists, the Earth is only 6,000 years old and according to the bible, the universe and the Earth were created at the same time, in the same amount of time. "God created the Heavens and the Earth..." (heavens meaning, sky or universe).

So we've established the following

1. The earth is supposedely 6,000 years old
2. It was created at the same time as the universe, in 6 days. According to Genesis 1

And here is my question, why can we see 13.7 billion light years into space? If the universe was only 6,000 years old, we would only be able to see 6,000 lightyears into space.

This means that Genesis is wrong and the universe was created long before the Earth. This throws the basis for your entire argument out the window. (it's also a proven fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old but creationists will never acknowledge that)

The speed of light doesn't lie, neither do mathematical equations or telescopes. So don't even think about it.

 

[TheOutsider]

I predict 2 responses from Creationists:

1) God created the universe to look old.
2) the speed of light is not constant and has changed in the last 6000 years.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

I predict 2 responses from Creationists:

1) God created the universe to look old.
2) the speed of light is not constant and has changed in the last 6000 years.

Don’t forget the light particles-waves were created between the earth and these distant stars at the same time as these objects were created, so their light was upon us at the moment of creation, because god could not be bothered to wait several billion years for their light to reach us, even though you need a telescope to see such distant objects.

 

[MarcusHill]

When God said "let there be light", he created the light throughout the universe in exactly the amount necessary to seem like the apparent age of the universe was old. He even had so send some "behind" where the Sun and stars etc. would be, since he needed the light to appear to come from them for the period between the creation of light and the creation of the actual astronomical bodies. Quite a clever deity, really.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Here is a fact for creationists:

We can see objects up to 13.7 billion lightyears away. This has been proved with mathematical equations. So what? you may ask.

According to creationists, the Earth is only 6,000 years old and according to the bible, the universe and the Earth were created at the same time, in the same amount of time. "God created the Heavens and the Earth..." (heavens meaning, sky or universe).

1. Please learn that YEC is an interpretation of Creationism. Not all Creationists are YEC.

2. The Bible does not state that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

3. Genesis does not say that the universe and earth were created at the same time.

So we've established the following

1. The earth is supposedely 6,000 years old
2. It was created at the same time as the universe, in 6 days. According to Genesis 1

And here is my question, why can we see 13.7 billion light years into space? If the universe was only 6,000 years old, we would only be able to see 6,000 lightyears into space.

So you have actually not established much of anything.

This means that Genesis is wrong and the universe was created long before the Earth. This throws the basis for your entire argument out the window. (it's also a proven fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old but creationists will never acknowledge that)

This means that you do not understand Genesis and you are determining your argument on something you do not know or understand.

 

[Krak]

1. Please learn that YEC is an interpretation of Creationism. Not all Creationists are YEC.

2. The Bible does not state that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

3. Genesis does not say that the universe and earth were created at the same time.



So you have actually not established much of anything.


This means that you do not understand Genesis and you are determining your argument on something you do not know or understand.

Actually, you misunderstand me. I never claimed that the bible said the Earth is 6,000 years old. I said that creationists claim that. And the bible DOES say that both the Earth and the Universe were created at the same time,

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.

Lets break this down. In the beginning, that means, before time. So neither the earth nor the universe could have existed before that which means they were created at the same time, according to genesis. Now I'm just pointing out that Genesis is wrong.

"Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years, and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened: God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars. " Genesis 1: 14-16

According to this, god created the sky or universe, after the earth. Which we know is false.

My argument, was not that the BIBLE claimed the earth and universe are 6,000 years old. but CREATIONISTS, or YEC as you call them.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Here is a fact for creationists:

We can see objects up to 13.7 billion lightyears away. This has been proved with mathematical equations. So what? you may ask.

According to creationists, the Earth is only 6,000 years old and according to the bible, the universe and the Earth were created at the same time, in the same amount of time. "God created the Heavens and the Earth..." (heavens meaning, sky or universe).

So we've established the following

1. The earth is supposedely 6,000 years old
2. It was created at the same time as the universe, in 6 days. According to Genesis 1

And here is my question, why can we see 13.7 billion light years into space? If the universe was only 6,000 years old, we would only be able to see 6,000 lightyears into space.

This means that Genesis is wrong and the universe was created long before the Earth. This throws the basis for your entire argument out the window. (it's also a proven fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old but creationists will never acknowledge that)

The speed of light doesn't lie, neither do mathematical equations or telescopes. So don't even think about it.

1. Mathematical equations do lie (or, at least, the mathematicians do)
2. The Omphalos argument: the light was created in such a way as to look old.
3. [Insert irrational ad hoc explanation here]

 

[Loudmouth]

To help emphasize the point that both Krak and Oncedeceived are making, this thread is focused on YEC claims, not christianity. It was a Jesuit priest that was one of the earliest and strongest supporters of the Big Bang model and it was christian geologists who first proposed that the Earth was millions if not billions of years old. Christian scientists are, have been, and will continue to be important contributors to science.

 

[LittleNipper]

I predict 2 responses from Creationists:

1) God created the universe to look old.
2) the speed of light is not constant and has changed in the last 6000 years.

GOD created light and THEN GOD created the source (stars).

 

[TheBear]

GOD created light and THEN GOD created the source (stars).

How does something like that work?

 

[Loudmouth]

GOD created light and THEN GOD created the source (stars).

In the case of supernovae, God must have created light that looked like it was coming from a star, a star that never existed. Within this light God also made it look like radioactive decay has been constant for at least billions of years, that the Universe has been expanding for 13.7 billion years, and that the speed of light is constant. Sounds like a pretty big deception to me. If I can't trust your God's Creation, then why should I trust his Word?

 

[TheOutsider]

GOD created light and THEN GOD created the source (stars).

That seems backwards to me. It would be a lot easier to make the source, then use that source to create the light.

 

[Loudmouth]

That seems backwards to me. It would be a lot easier to make the source, then use that source to create the light.

Baloney. Everyone knows that Edison was lighting the streets of large cities before he created the light bulb.

 

[Krak]

GOD created light and THEN GOD created the source (stars).

Then how do you explain new objects that keep appearing in places where there hadn't previously been any? These objects are also billions of lightyears a way, so they didn't JUST form. They've been there for billions of years but it took their light that long to reach us.

Your argument doesn't really make sense.

Another thing that Genesis is wrong about, "God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night."

The moon isn't a source of light, everyone knows that =/

Creationists need to give up on taking Genesis literally because it is full of fallacies, contradictions and false ideas.

 

[peteos]

Another thing that Genesis is wrong about, "God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night."

I firmly believe the universe is 13.7 Billion years old and we share a common ancestor with apes.

But this is a silly argument against the Bible. The moon lights up the sky. It looks like a light. God isn't trying to give a scientific analysis about the source of light, whether it is created by the heat of a huge hydrogen body or reflected off the surface of a huge rock. There are two dominant "lights" in the sky, the sun and the moon. Likewise, all those complaints about the sun being another star. Yes, the sun is simply a star, but it is not simply like any other star to us. It is the one we are eight light minutes away from and therefor the one that heats are planet, feeds are plants, and is so bright in the sky it blocks out the light of everything else.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I firmly believe the universe is 13.7 Billion years old and we share a common ancestor with apes.

One step closer to atheism... bwahaha...

But this is a silly argument against the Bible. The moon lights up the sky. It looks like a light. God isn't trying to give a scientific analysis about the source of light, whether it is created by the heat of a huge hydrogen body or reflected off the surface of a huge rock. There are two dominant "lights" in the sky, the sun and the moon. Likewise, all those complaints about the sun being another star. Yes, the sun is simply a star, but it is not simply like any other star to us. It is the one we are eight light minutes away from and therefor the one that heats are planet, feeds are plants, and is so bright in the sky it blocks out the light of everything else.

The argument is against literalism. The Moon is not a light. A mirror is not a light.
That said, a non-literal interpretation of that verse is fine and dandy.

 

[LittleNipper]

1. Mathematical equations do lie (or, at least, the mathematicians do)
2. The Omphalos argument: the light was created in such a way as to look old.
3. [Insert irrational ad hoc explanation here]

When I was a small child, my dad loved to play two hand tricks. The one was where he slid off his "removable" thub (that he said he'd cut off). He'd wiggle his thumb grimace and slide it off and then pop it back on without so much as a seam.
The other was when he'd count his digits and say, "How many digits do I have on both hands." I say ten and he'd say eleven. And then he'd proceed to demonstrate that ten, nine, eight, seven, six; plus five makes eleven. It made perfect sense, but I knew something was wrong. Again, he'd hold up one hand and say, "Including the thumb, how may fingers are on this hand?" I'd count five. Then he'd hold up the other hand and say, "How many all together?" I'd count ten and he say, "No, eleven! See, ten, nine, eight, seven, six; plus five is eleven."

It is always rather fun how parents, particularly dads, love to screw with kid's minds. But the fact is, my dad taught me not to trust anything anyone says, UNLESS you know you have all the facts and can figure it out for yourself. This is the greatest danger concerning evolution. It is often presented as matter of fact.and without reconsiderations. One can make eleven out of ten if one is following the wrong set of rules and procedures. Satan is presently influencing rules and procedures....... He is presently the prince of this world for now.

 

[Loudmouth]

But the fact is, my dad taught me not to trust anything anyone says, UNLESS you know you have all the facts and can figure it out for yourself.

That is, unless it was written by bronze age goat herders.

This is the greatest danger concerning evolution. It is often presented as matter of fact.and without reconsiderations. One can make eleven out of ten if one is following the wrong set of rules and procedures. Satan is presently influencing rules and procedures....... He is presently the prince of this world for now.

First of all, evolution is both theory and fact. Evolution, both micro and macro, has been observed which makes it a fact. The theory of evolution is the mechanisms that cause this change, both in the present and in the past.

Secondly, what facts show that the theory of evolution is wrong? What are biologists missing? No theory is ever accepted as completely true. Every theory is tentative and open to reconsideration, so that complaint is thrown out immediately. All you have left is whining, which really isn't helping your case. Either show how evolution is wrong using evidence or agree with the 99.9% of biologists who accept the theory as being tentatively accurate.

 

[TheBear]

I'm still trying to get my head around the concept of light first, then the source.

 

[Krak]

When I was a small child, my dad loved to play two hand tricks. The one was where he slid off his "removable" thub (that he said he'd cut off). He'd wiggle his thumb grimace and slide it off and then pop it back on without so much as a seam.
The other was when he'd count his digits and say, "How many digits do I have on both hands." I say ten and he'd say eleven. And then he'd proceed to demonstrate that ten, nine, eight, seven, six; plus five makes eleven. It made perfect sense, but I knew something was wrong. Again, he'd hold up one hand and say, "Including the thumb, how may fingers are on this hand?" I'd count five. Then he'd hold up the other hand and say, "How many all together?" I'd count ten and he say, "No, eleven! See, ten, nine, eight, seven, six; plus five is eleven."

It is always rather fun how parents, particularly dads, love to screw with kid's minds. But the fact is, my dad taught me not to trust anything anyone says, UNLESS you know you have all the facts and can figure it out for yourself. This is the greatest danger concerning evolution. It is often presented as matter of fact.and without reconsiderations. One can make eleven out of ten if one is following the wrong set of rules and procedures. Satan is presently influencing rules and procedures....... He is presently the prince of this world for now.

Ok, I will show you that math can't lie.

Hubble's law is a statement in physical cosmology which states that the redshift in light coming from distant galaxies is proportional to their distance or H(hubble constant)

We can find the redshift of something by pointing an optical spectrum at it. Redshift can be measured by looking at the spectrum of light that comes from a single source.

For example, if a galaxy has a redshift of 20,000 km/sec and H(hubble constant) is set to 70 km/sec/Mpc, then the galaxy's distance(x) = (20,000 km/sec)/(70 km/sec/Mpc) = 20,000/70 × [(km/sec)/(km/sec)] Mpc = 286 megaparsecs.

One parsec is 3.2 lightyears, a megaparsec is 1 million parsecs so that galaxy would be 932,932,000 lightyears away.

Like you said, unless we observe and calculate these things ourselves, it could be a lie. But if you take a college astronomy class (I have), You will do experiments that prove exactly what I just said.