Fact for creationists

[Krak]

well I'm no physicist, but it seems if you start breaking rules or laws, then they no longer remain rules and laws.

The speed of light is not a rule or a law, it is a theory. Einstein's theory of relativity says that nothing can go faster than the speed of light.

If I were to get in a hot air balloon and start flying, would I be "breaking" the law of gravity? No, I merely found an artificial way to keep gravity from holding me to the ground. The same could be said for this experiment, they merely created an artificial vapor that temporarily changes the speed of light.

 

[ReverendDG]

well I'm no physicist, but it seems if you start breaking rules or laws, then they no longer remain rules and laws.

but its not the vacuum of space.. which is what people speak of when talking about the speed of light, not some vapor that distorts it
by the way "rules" and "laws" are meaningless terms now, they are all theories no matter the name, they just happen to be old

 

[mpok1519]

I don't think you're going to get any positive answers that'll teach us anything.

 

[Krak]

as far as light reaching the earth, I think the simple explanation is that when the earth and universe were created, and as the space expanded, the light also expanded with the space. In a way, this allowed the light to travel faster because as it was going its normal speed (whatever that is) it was also being stretched by the expanding universe, thus allowing it to travel "faster."

That still doesn't make sense, the universe would have to expand at the speed of light, which is impossible.

 

[ReverendDG]

Ooh, interesting. I'm sure there will be more study into that; I'm interested in seeing what is found.

Any of our resident experts familiar with this? Some articles state that it's a highly contested finding (of course) but don't really give details on why. Something with the experiment itself? Errors in the analysis?

they have been able to stop light i believe, but its through artificial means, i believe i've read a few creationists claim this makes their claims valid..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3308109.stm

 

[guzman]

That still doesn't make sense, the universe would have to expand at the speed of light, which is impossible.

I would not at all assume that the creation event followed the speed of light laws (which we've already seen aren't really "laws" at all)...what makes you think gravity obeys the speed of light?

 

[guzman]

sorry can't post link yet...but regarding gravity being faster than light....

Standard experimental techniques exist to determine the propagation speed of forces. When we apply these techniques to gravity, they all yield propagation speeds too great to measure, substantially faster than light-speed. This is because gravity, in contrast to light, has no detectable aberration or propagation delay for its action, even for cases (such as binary pulsars) where sources of gravity accelerate significantly during the light time from source to target.

 

[Krak]

I would not at all assume that the creation event followed the speed of light laws (which we've already seen aren't really "laws" at all)...what makes you think gravity obeys the speed of light?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, gravity obeys the speed of light? Gravity deals with matter, light is not matter. They are two seperate things. Your not making ANY sense now.

 

[guzman]

That still doesn't make sense, the universe would have to expand at the speed of light, which is impossible.

you aren't understanding my point. Play like the expanding universe is a balloon and play like you put a dark dot with a pen on the balloon...as it expands, the dot will start to separate and go in different directions. If this dot was light, it would thus travel faster because not only is it going its normal speed, but it's also being stretched at the same time from other sources. Do you see? And who knows how fast gravity is.

 

[Krak]

you aren't understanding my point. Play like the expanding universe is a balloon and play like you put a dark dot with a pen on the balloon...as it expands, the dot will start to separate and go in different directions. If this dot was light, it would thus travel faster because not only is it going its normal speed, but it's also being stretched at the same time from other sources. Do you see? And who knows how fast gravity is.

First of all, gravity isn't "fast" gravity is this;

Imagine a trampalene, when you stand on it, it bends under your weight, created a bent circle around you. Now if you but a ball on the trampalene, it rolls toward you. That's the current theory on gravity, large objects merely bend space and attract other objects. So I fail to see how gravity plays a role in the big bang. The big bang is just that, a bang. Everything traveled outward at a great rate of speed but the speed of light is unlikely and highly improbable. Imagine a supernova, when it exlodes, the shockwave is only 1/10th the speed of light. and as I said before, the big bang couldn't have been faster than the speed of light because it's impossible for matter to travel faster than the speed of light.

 

[guzman]

First of all, gravity isn't "fast" gravity is this;

Imagine a trampalene, when you stand on it, it bends under your weight, created a bent circle around you. Now if you but a ball on the trampalene, it rolls toward you. That's the current theory on gravity, large objects merely bend space and attract other objects. So I fail to see how gravity plays a role in the big bang. The big bang is just that, a bang. Everything traveled outward at a great rate of speed but the speed of light is unlikely and highly improbable. Imagine a supernova, when it exlodes, the shockwave is only 1/10th the speed of light. and as I said before, the big bang couldn't have been faster than the speed of light because it's impossible for matter to travel faster than the speed of light.

play like the sun were to decide to move locations....do you agree that the planets would follow suit and move right along with the sun? yet they are not attached by chains. Same with the earth...if that were to move, the moon would follow suit and instantly move with it. "instant" is faster than light, right?

 

[TheBear]

This is one, amazing thread. I'm witnessing one mind-numbing explanation after the next.

Not only are the desperate ones resistant to evidence, they are also impervious to logic and reason. Their minds are truly impenetrable. Ain't nothing gettin' in.

 

[Krak]

play like the sun were to decide to move locations....do you agree that the planets would follow suit and move right along with the sun? yet they are not attached by chains. Same with the earth...if that were to move, the moon would follow suit and instantly move with it. "instant" is faster than light, right?

Now your just being silly, The sun is constantly moving, the earth is constantly moving and the moon is constantly moving. Its called "orbit."

 

[Skaloop]

play like the sun were to decide to move locations....do you agree that the planets would follow suit and move right along with the sun? yet they are not attached by chains. Same with the earth...if that were to move, the moon would follow suit and instantly move with it. "instant" is faster than light, right?

Well, from what I've heard, it isn't an instant. If the sun were to suddenly disappear, it would take about eight minutes for it to have any affect on the Earth's orbit.

 

[guzman]

Now your just being silly, The sun is constantly moving, the earth is constantly moving and the moon is constantly moving. Its called "orbit."

that's beside the point....I'm saying if the sun decided to pack up shop and dart away, the planets would follow -- right?

 

[Krak]

that's beside the point....I'm saying if the sun decided to pack up shop and dart away, the planets would follow -- right?

Wrong, the orbits would change and the solar system would most likey fall apart

 

[guzman]

http://www.ldolphin.org/gspeed.html

By carefully studying the observable data Van Flandern now concludes that the speed of gravity is greater than or equal to the present speed of light by a factor of 2 x 1010. This velocity (6 x 1018 meters per second) turns out to be just below Barry Setterfield's latest estimate of the speed of light everywhere in the universe on Day Two of creation week!

 

[guzman]

Wrong, the orbits would change and the solar system would most likey fall apart

no it wouldn't.....why would you think that....the solar system is held together by gravity..all the planets are subservant to the sun....they do what the sun says. When the sun says jump, they jump.

 

[Krak]

By carefully studying the observable data Van Flandern now concludes that the speed of gravity is greater than or equal to the present speed of light by a factor of 2 x 1010. This velocity (6 x 1018 meters per second) turns out to be just below Barry Setterfield's latest estimate of the speed of light everywhere in the universe on Day Two of creation week![

no it wouldn't.....why would you think that....the solar system is held together by gravity..all the planets are subservant to the sun....they do what the sun says. When the sun says jump, they jump.

like I said before, gravity doesn't have a set velocity. Its velocity is determined by the mass of the object. A black hole has the "fastest" gravitational pull out of any other objest in the universe.

If the sun were to be swallowed by a wormhole tomorrow, no the earth would not follow. It would likely end up orbiting jupiter.

 

[guzman]

like I said before, gravity doesn't have a set velocity. Its velocity is determined by the mass of the object. A black hole has the "fastest" gravitational pull out of any other objest in the universe.

If the sun were to be swallowed by a wormhole tomorrow, no the earth would not follow. It would likely end up orbiting jupiter.

maybe, maybe not...but I wouldn't want to be there to find out. I think if the sun were to move around, the planets would follow suit. We could debate this all day long, but I admit I have no real authority to discuss it from a scientific standpoint, I'm just talking common sense. But if you see it differently, then fine. You're welcome to your opinion.