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Really? How then that most who hold to the ET doctrine assure us that everyone who doesn't believe in Christ ends up in hell by default? No choice involved there at all.The torment is entirely voluntary.
Really? How then that most who hold to the ET doctrine assure us that everyone who doesn't believe in Christ ends up in hell by default? No choice involved there at all.
Some folks deny "eternal punishment" they claim that in Matt 25:46 "aionios" never means "eternal" and "kolasis" means "correction not "punishment."Ok, but if God sends people to eternal fire, where they are destroyed, I think they don’t suffer, or feel anything there eternally.
Ok, but if God sends people to eternal fire, where they are destroyed, I think they don’t suffer, or feel anything there eternally.
My Bible has 31,132 verses does your Bible only have nine?Those who end up in the Lake of fire are destroyed, but not like most people think.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Sigh... Just because you think that's what those verses mean, doesn't actually that's what they mean.
Tell me, how does eternal destruction, gel with the restitution of all things or the last enemy death being destroyed?
Hi ShrewdManager,I appreciate you're only restating the conventional reformist/ protestant/ evangelical view on the matter. I'll try to sum up what you've put forward, and please correct me if you think it's misrepresenting your theology there.
According to you, God's policies are, in brief:
- In relation to the girl, the filthy little b!tch had her chance to repent but she blew it, now she's regrettably going to have to burn in hell forever, and it's her own stupid fault.
- In relation to the perp, he's said the sinner's prayer and cried with remorse, so I'll relieve him of all that guilt and let him on in, no more to pay.
- Generally, I love you all, but if you don't accept Jesus, you can all go to hell, where you'll burn forever and a day.
Hi Martymonster,
It's not my job to explain or even figure out the "How" of what Jesus says will happen. I take Him at His word, which is VERY CLEAR, and leave the rest to Him, since His ways are not our ways. But just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't detract from the truth of what God declares about it in His Word. Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).
And the disciples' minds were opened which says nothing about the minds of present day believers.FineLinen said:We must notify the Master's disciples immediately.
"Then opened He their minds that they might understand the Scriptures."
Dianoigo = To open up completely.
Understanding = suniemi = perception/ understanding.
So God didn't create hell?Hell is the doing of mankinds evilness coming back on them. Read or listen to any testimony of someone getting a glimpse or experience of what it's like down there. It's everything but God doing it to them.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.[Image omitted]
Hi ShrewdManager,
I'm confused by your "Christian" status stated in your bio. Based on your post, it doesn't appear that you understand the basis for salvation, the message of the gospel, the reality of sin, and the like. What does being a Christian mean to you then? Or what renders you a Christian?
Kris, I asked whether the rather brutal summary I gave accurately reflected your understanding of God's attitude towards ppl in those kinds of situations. I'm happy to get such a defensive response, because it gives me hope that you're on the way to realizing the folly of the conventional view.
Unfortunately, for all its efforts to embrace the axiom that 'God loves the sinner but hates the sin', mainstream Christian theology ultimately rejects it and conflates the sin with the sinner. That poor girl in my example obviously was not sinless, but any path to sanctification in this world was cut short by reason of a burden she was unable to bear.
Don't you think God's good enough to destroy the sin and deliver the sinner cleansed, as a new creature in Christ? Do you doubt Yahushua His Salvation is His Omega plan or that He's able to do it? What would be the point in Jesus' mission of raising the dead, healing the sick, restoring sight to the blind, freeing the slaves and so on? Why would he go through hell and die an excruciating death and be raised to life if not to show his enemies that God will always go further to save than sin, the world and the devil can go to destroy? That's the great achievement, the eternal victory of the cross.
We're not dealing with some business transaction here, this is about heart and soul. God's justice is about setting right, not getting even. So once sin, death and the devil are destroyed in the fire of His abundant grace, the sinner can overcome his slavery to the power of death, and is offered a hand to life and healing by the Great Physician. It's all in the Good Book, Kris.
Hi Shrewdmanager,
From the very beginning, God chose to save sinners because of His great love for us. He has provided everything necessary for our salvation in every aspect, including the revelation of Himself through creation and conscience, the drawing of us by the Holy Spirit, the sending of Jesus to pay our sin’s penalty so we could be forgiven and saved, and the provision of faith necessary for us to believe, because God is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9b). Therefore, God is always ready to impart His saving grace to all those who would come to Him in genuine, sincere faith. However, we, as sinful people, (including the rape victim and her perp) also have a part in the salvation equation, because we have been given free will; we can only receive God’s gift of grace by choosing to turn away from our life of sin (Matthew 16:24) and personally placing our faith in Jesus for forgiveness and redemption (John 3:16, 1 John 1:9-10). That final step on our part is is, in essence, what completes the transaction of salvation.
Unless we, as sinners, willfully make the choice to accept Jesus’ free gift of salvation by faith, we will remain in our sinful condition, unaffected by Jesus' provision on the cross, with “a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries” that awaits the unredeemed in eternity (Hebrews 10:27). To assert otherwise is to deny the clear teaching of the entirety of Scripture on this subject, as well as on the subject of hell and the vast numbers of people who will end up there (Matthew 7:13-14).
The only path to sanctification is through faith in Jesus Christ for what He did for us on the cross. The word “sanctify” means “to set apart” or “to declare holy.” It is only in the moment of our salvation that we are set apart as belonging to God (sanctified), and declared holy and righteous before Him(justified), because Jesus’ righteousness is credited to us by (His) grace through (our) faith in Him.
Absolutely God is good enough to destroy sin and deliver the sinner cleansed. However, God clearly says in His Word that "that" does not happen in our lives outside of placing our faith in Jesus for our redemption and salvation. Outside of that, there is no salvation or deliverance from our sin.
You are incorrect about God's justice in the context of sinners and hell. God is gracious, loving, just, holy, and righteous. However, the most commonly misunderstood aspect of the combined, unfathomable attributes of God is that they all operate concurrently and in perfect harmony together at all times. Many people attempt to separate God’s attributes, and embrace only the ones which suit their own desires or beliefs to the exclusion of the rest. This causes them to create their own god rather than trusting the only true God for who He has revealed Himself to be. For example, when confronted with the reality of sin and hell, people like yourself often cite God’s loving, gracious nature as their defense against such things, as if God's love would compel Him to overlook or accept sin. The problem with this skewed perception of God is that, because He is holy, just, and righteous, He cannot close his eyes to sin; otherwise, He would not remain holy, just and righteous. One attribute of God does not, nor can it, cancel out or supersede any other attribute; instead they must function together and in perfect harmony at all times.
Therefore, because of God’s great love for us, because His holiness demands perfection, because His justice demands that sin be punished, and because His righteousness requires justice and judgment to be rendered, God sent His own Son, Jesus Christ, to this earth to meet and satisfy all His righteous requirements on our behalf through His own sinless life and atoning death. This was the only way to reconcile a sinful human race to a holy, perfect God without violating any of His nature or attributes. This is what makes it possible for sinful man to be saved. Therefore, those who place their faith and trust in Jesus, believing that He satisfied the debt of their sin in full, will receive forgiveness and eternal life. Those who reject Jesus’ atoning sacrifice will, as a result, reap the full measure of God’s righteous judgment, and suffer eternal death apart from Him because they rejected the only means of forgiveness and salvation available to them.
That is not "Kris' Theology." That is God's theology and truth laid out for us in His Written Word.
The typical heterodox litany of out-of-context proof texts.FineLinen said:Fifteen Questions
1 If God will have all men to be saved, and if most men are lost, then how can God be supreme (1 Tim.2:3,4)?
2 If Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, did He die in vain for the lost (1 John 2:2)?
3 If God is going to reconcile the universe through Christ, how can some be tormented forever (Col. 1:20)?
4 How can God, in Christ, gather all things together as one while billions remain eternally estranged (Eph.1:10)?
5 If all die in Adam, and a few are made alive in Christ, how can grace much more abound than sin (Rom. 5:20)?
6 If all men are condemned by Adam’s offense, why are not all justified by the one just award (Rom. 5:18)?
7 If all die in Adam, why shall not all be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)?
8 How can every knee bow confessing Christ Lord, to God’s glory, unless reconciled (Phil. 2:10,11)?
9 If Christ only hath immortality, how can any of the dead be alive now (1 Tim. 6:14-16; 1 Cor. 15:53, 54)?
10 If the wicked go to hell as soon as they die, why are they raised and judged later (Rev. 20:11-15)?
11 Since the lake of fire is the second death, what happens to the wicked when death is destroyed (1 Cor.15:26)?
12 If “forever” means “eternity” what does “forever and ever” mean?
13 If God is Love and has all power, will He not find a way to save all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)?
14 If Christ is to reign for ever and ever, what does it mean that He will abdicate His throne (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24)?
15 Will God ever actually become All in all (1 Cor.15:28)?
Fifteen Questions
1 If God will have all men to be saved, and if most men are lost, then how can God be supreme (1 Tim.2:3,4)?
2 If Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, did He die in vain for the lost (1 John 2:2)?
3 If God is going to reconcile the universe through Christ, how can some be tormented forever (Col. 1:20)?
4 How can God, in Christ, gather all things together as one while billions remain eternally estranged (Eph.1:10)?
5 If all die in Adam, and a few are made alive in Christ, how can grace much more abound than sin (Rom. 5:20)?
6 If all men are condemned by Adam’s offense, why are not all justified by the one just award (Rom. 5:18)?
7 If all die in Adam, why shall not all be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22)?
8 How can every knee bow confessing Christ Lord, to God’s glory, unless reconciled (Phil. 2:10,11)?
9 If Christ only hath immortality, how can any of the dead be alive now (1 Tim. 6:14-16; 1 Cor. 15:53, 54)?
10 If the wicked go to hell as soon as they die, why are they raised and judged later (Rev. 20:11-15)?
11 Since the lake of fire is the second death, what happens to the wicked when death is destroyed (1 Cor.15:26)?
12 If “forever” means “eternity” what does “forever and ever” mean?
13 If God is Love and has all power, will He not find a way to save all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)?
14 If Christ is to reign for ever and ever, what does it mean that He will abdicate His throne (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:24)?
15 Will God ever actually become All in all (1 Cor.15:28)?
From the very beginning, God chose to save sinners because of His great love for us. He has provided everything necessary for our salvation in every aspect, including the revelation of Himself through creation and conscience,
Hi Finelinen,
Great questions!
- This verse in Timothy speaks of God’s desire for all men to be saved. It does not state all men will be saved. If it did, it would be a complete contradiction of Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:13-14 which state, “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
- He died for the sins of the whole world, making salvation possible for all mankind - past, present, and future. His life, death, and sacrifice on the cross was necessary even if He only died for one individual person’s isolated sin, yet He died for all. If many chose to reject His payment and pay for their own sins instead, that is their decision to make.
- Colossians 1:20 needs to be understood and interpreted in its surrounding context (as well as in light of the totality of Scripture). Paul is not teaching nor stating that everyone, past, present, and future will be reconciled to God universally through the blood of Jesus and, therefore, go to heaven. If he was, he would be stating a direct contradiction to what Jesus proclaimed in Matthew 25:41 and 46.
- Billions will remain eternally estranged from God because that will be their choice, not God’s. But He has given man free-will to choose and honors the choices they make. Also, Ephesians 1:10 needs to be understood and interpreted in its surrounding context also. If you read the next few verses (v.12-14), Paul makes it clear that only those who trust in Jesus for their salvation are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of their inheritance (eternal life). It does not teach universalism.
- If sin abounded under the law, then grace abounded much more under Jesus. Literally, the phrase “abounded much more” means “super-abounded.” God makes His grace super-abound over abounding sin.
- All can be justified, if they choose to be. The gift of God’s salvation is available for everyone, not just some. The thing your missing in Romans 5:18-19 is this: When it says, “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,” nobody is condemned to hell based on the sins Adam committed. We are all guilty and condemned to hell because of our own sins committed, if we refuse to accept Jesus’ gift of payment for them all. It’s like any other gift. It’s freely offered but must be accepted to become “yours.”
- See answer above.
- People in hell will realize and know Jesus Christ was (and is) LORD by confessing the truth on bended knee, even though they rejected Him on earth. They don’t have to be reconciled to God to acknowledge that absolute fact. Much like the Jews hailed Jesus as “Hosanna” as He rode on the donkey, the unredeemed will in hell as well. Had the Jews not proclaimed this, the rocks would have cried out. But nobody would claim that rocks had to be redeemed and reconciled to God in order to cry out the truth about Jesus.
- Only God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) have immortality, in the sense of always existing from eternity past to eternity future. All others, including angels, fallen angels, and mankind had a beginning but have no end, for their suffering for sins will go on forever and ever.
- They are raised from the dead at the end of all things for God’s final judgment. At that point, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Hell/Hades will be empty.
- Death will be destroyed whereby nobody will ever die again. At the White Throne Judgment, sinner’s bodies will be raised from the dead and transformed into eternal bodies equipped for the torment they will endure, yet never die from. Ever.
- Verses, please, so I know which ones your speaking of, in context.
- He did “find a way” to save all – the cross! But that doesn’t mean salvation is automatically imputed to everyone. Nowhere does Scripture teach universalism.
- Those verses say no such thing.
- It depends on your meaning of “All in all.” Please expound on that.
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