Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

[martymonster]

 

[Aussie Pete]

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It shows extreme ignorance of spiritual reality. People choose life or death. They could choose life. Those who do not will be torturing themselves.

 

[hedrick]

It shows extreme ignorance of spiritual reality. People choose life or death. They could choose life. Those who do not will be torturing themselves.

There are lots of attempts to make eternal torment seem reasonable. This is one of them. But the passages show God sending them to it. The OT images of fire are fire from heaven, not fires that came from knocking over a lamp and got out of control.

If annihilation is true, it's annihilation done by God.

Personally I think anything other than universalism has severe moral problems, though it's not the obvious reading of much of the NT.

 

[martymonster]

It shows extreme ignorance of spiritual reality. People choose life or death. They could choose life. Those who do not will be torturing themselves.

I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

 

[Kaon]

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They are talking about the wrong god.

We are already in hell; Someone came to show us the way out. A lesser god seeks to keep us here.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

Obviously I do not agree with you. Just one Bible verse - there are others:
Hebrews 10
"28Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?…"

Mercy and grace are utterly undeserved. God is not obliged to save anyone. That He does is a testimony to His great love. But those who refuse Him in this life will have to live with the consequences in the next.

 

[SkyWriting]

Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

There is no time in Hell.
Hell is the reward for people who do not want to be with God.
That's extremely fair. Don't want, don't get.
But, people torment themselves in Hell. Also very fair.

 

[hedrick]

There is no time in Hell.
Hell is the reward for people who do not want to be with God.
That's extremely fair. Don't want, don't get.
But, people torment themselves in Hell. Also very fair.

Another attempt to make it palatable. But the image in the Rev isn’t just isolation from God. It is torment impose by God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

If one hates God and refuses fellowship with Love, and God respects their choice - why blame Him for the outcome.

Imagine an eternity without any love...

But they saw Love personified and said crucify Him.

 

[Der Alte]

Obviously I do not agree with you. Just one Bible verse - there are others:
Hebrews 10
"28Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?…"
Mercy and grace are utterly undeserved. God is not obliged to save anyone. That He does is a testimony to His great love. But those who refuse Him in this life will have to live with the consequences in the next.

This passage is referring to a fate worse than death without mercy. Jesus also mentioned a fate worse than death.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

 

[Peter J Barban]

The Bible certainly says that God has privileges that others do not. For example, God only lets us worship him. We must never allow others to worship us.

Additionally, God glorifies himself and demands that we bring him glory. He does not share His glory with another. We are not allowed to seek our own glory.

God reserves the authority and moral rightness to condemn his enemies to hell for eternity. He does not extend that right to us.

Finally, God's command for us to love our enemies is only for the living, it does not extend beyond death or to evil spirits. There is no love or mercy for those who die apart from Christ.

 

[Aussie Pete]

This passage is referring to a fate worse than death without mercy. Jesus also mentioned a fate worse than death.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Oh, for sure it is going to be terrible. The story of the rich man and Lazarus shows that. Those who are not born again are already dead. That's why they have no access to heaven. It's not a matter of "good" or "bad". There is a second death for the unbeliever. I personally do not believe that it is a literal fire. God is a consuming fire. Most people are afraid of death but it's what comes after that they should fear.

Mercy and grace are available freely right now, in this life. Most people prefer to live and die in their sin.

"And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil." John 7:7

I did not get saved because of a fear of hell. I was convinced that I would be shut out of heaven. That was enough to get me shaking in my boots.

 

[martymonster]

There is no time in Hell.
Hell is the reward for people who do not want to be with God.
That's extremely fair. Don't want, don't get.
But, people torment themselves in Hell. Also very fair.

For all the times I've seen Christ talking (what most think is about hell) I've never heard him mention this. Why do you think that is?

 

[martymonster]

They are talking about the wrong god.

We are already in hell; Someone came to show us the way out. A lesser god seeks to keep us here.

Would you mind going into a little more detail about this?

Thanks!

 

[SeventyOne]

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We love our enemies because our war is not with flesh and blood, but with spiritual forces. Also, when the time comes, we will not be sitting as the judge over our fellow men. That's the Lord's role, some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation.

 

[Peter J Barban]

The real question is why are you sharing a picture that mocks Christ? Those who publically mock Christ, even by sharing their friend's pictures, have no wisdom or even a basic fear of the Lord.

 

[martymonster]

The real question is why are you sharing a picture that mocks Christ? Those who publically mock Christ, even by sharing their friend's pictures, have no wisdom or even a basic fear of the Lord.

It certainly mocks a version of Christ, that's for sure.
Is that the only argument you can come up with though?

 

[Peter J Barban]

It certainly mocks a version of Christ, that's for sure.
Is that the only argument you can come up with though?

I already have provided arguments in an earlier post.

Additionally, Christ will remember your mockery on the day of judgment. I urge you to repent.

 

[Kris Jordan]

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I don't really see you addressing the problem. Nowhere does scripture ever speak of us sending ourselves to eternally tormented. You answer doesn't address the concern of the meme, that ultimately, God is holding his creation to higher standards than himself, if he doesn't actually do what he tells others to do.

Hi Martymonster,

We can't separate-out God's love from His justice, holiness, and righteousness or He wouldn't be God. God's attributes and character all operate concurrently and in perfect harmony together at all times. Many people attempt to separate His attributes and embrace only those which suit their own desires or beliefs to the exclusion of the rest, but "that god" is a manufactured one, not the Living God who has revealed Himself to us in His word.

When people are confronted with the reality of sin and hell, they will often cite God’s loving nature as their defense against such things, as if His love should compel Him to overlook or accept their sin. Or, in the case of your friend's post, they attempt to malign God's character by claiming He can't love those whom He must carry out His righteous justice upon.

The problem with these skewed perceptions of God is that - because He is loving and holy, just, and righteous - He cannot close His eyes to sin; otherwise, He would not be holy, just and righteous. Using a human example, we would never consider a courtroom judge "just" if his rendered sentence upon a convicted rapist or murderer was freedom and exoneration instead of a prison sentence. That judge would be corrupt, not just. Likewise, God's attribute of being loving doesn't cancel out or supersede any other attribute of His; instead they must function together and in perfect harmony at all times.

To specifically address this FB post, God can absolutely love those who end up in hell even when they are experiencing His just punishment for their sin. To say otherwise would be like saying a parent doesn't love their child for disciplining them for bad behavior.

Love doesn't ignore wrongdoing. If it did, it's not genuine love. And it was because of God's love for us (as sinners) that He sent Jesus to die for us so we wouldn't have to suffer His just judgment in hell for our sins. But if we reject His payment for our sins, we will unfortunately suffer for them ourselves because God's justice will be rendered since sin must be punished.

 

[Kaon]

Would you mind going into a little more detail about this?

Thanks!

The Word of God told us already that an entity rules this plane of existence, and He has also told us He is not from this plane of existence either. At least the earth is NOT heaven; the native state of entities from the Most High is spirit.

We ignore a lot to make "the best" of this world, but the truth is the questions Christians and atheists alike have of this plane of existence - the confusion and qualms - are all because this entity has diligently used its power to 1) mimic what many of us know of as the spiritual, and 2) keep as many people down here as possible - enticing them with flatteries, pleasure and exaltation. This is its doing, the entity masquerading as the Lord plays both sides to control all flows of "chaos", or choice. When we ask, "why is God absent/not listening/etc" it is because we realize what is wrong, but we don't realize who the god is we are talking about.

80 years is nothing compared to eternity; you get 80 - 120 years to figure out how to get out of this plane of existence ruled by a fake god. The Word of God didn't even have to address this plane of existence, but some of His people are stuck here as well, so for their sake, He came down and showed us a way to escape hell.