Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

[martymonster]

You are not morally or legally responsible after they grow up. You may be surprised to know that God respects mankind and the free will that He gave us. God loves His creation. That includes mankind, who are inclined not to reciprocate. God has made it possible for all mankind to be reconciled to their Creator. That does not mean that all mankind will accept God's provision. God will not coerce people. He could. Then God would be violating man's free will - which of course means that it would no longer be free.

God has taken responsibility as far as possible without overriding mankind's free will. And mankind's freedom has a use-by date. There won't be any free will once the day of judgement comes.

Firstly, how your kids turn out, is a reflection on your parenting, so yes, you are responsible for how the conduct themselves. You may not be legally responsible for them, but you are certainly morally responsible for them. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a scripture for that.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Secondly, God does indeed do whatever he wants, without any thought to man's so called freewill. That's why we have verses like this.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Gen 50:21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

Special note: The above verse does not say "God allowed" or "God used it for good anyway" It say, God MEANT it unto good, which means he caused it. Wait, let me guess.... God is not responsible!

 

[Jipsah]

You’re not the first to jeer at God.

Ah, a smarmy insult in place of a response. Typical. But just for the record, I;m not jeering at God, I'm jeering at you, and your endless stream of insults and sophistries. This may come as a surprise to you, but you're not God; you don't even speak for Him.

I doubt you want an answer but basically you do not know Him nor how He works.

If I want an answer I certainly wouldn't come to you. I could get as much from a parrot.

He’s superior to your understanding.

You, however, are not. Nor anyone else's as far as I can see.

No one who knew or knows God thought this but I’m sure it’s a comfort to you.

Ah yes, everyone who "knows God" agrees with whatever stupid doctrine you embrace. Got it. Run along now, grown folk are talking here.

 

[Jipsah]

Death means separation, not the end of existence.

I disagree. That's how we've redefined "dead" to explain the eternal torture doctrine. I don't think people intrinsically have eternal life, and see nothing in Scripture which inclines me to that belief.

So why would a sinner want to be in heaven? It would be his worst nightmare.

The sinner isn't anywhere if he's dead. He would in effect never have existed at all.

 

[Jipsah]

God did not create puppets. He created people with free will.

Anyone who ever tried to quit smoking has to question how free free will really is. <Laugh>

 

[bbbbbbb]

You make it sound as if I claim to see things that no one else can. This is false. If I believed that, then I'd be trying to pass myself off as some kind of modern day prophet, which I'm not. Things revealed in scripture, are merely interpreted by scripture, so it couldn't be a personal revelation, as you claim I so claim.
If you take a verse from scripture and a "face value" interpretation of it causes it to conflict with other scriptures, then clearly it cannot be correct.

As for the symbolism, parables are made up of symbols, and since Christ only taught in parables... well, I'll let you do the math.

You, however, stated quite clearly that all of scripture, not merely parables, is symbolic. Thus, you end up with symbols being used to interpret symbols. In that case it is more than possible for an individual such as myself to ascribe some symbolic meaning to something in scripture, e.g. a donkey, and comparing all mentions of donkeys in scripture reach some thoroughly logical and consistent symbols which may flat out contradict the symbolic meaning seen by someone such as yourself regarding donkeys - the best part being, of course, that we both sincerely believe that Spirit of God has revealed these hidden symbolic meanings to us.

Now, you can do the math using your symbols.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exo 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
Exo 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

In the above verse, the owner is held responsible for the actions of the ox, if he knew what it's tendencies were. The owner did not personally make or cause the ox to gore someone to death, but they are held responsible, because they are the owner.

And yet no father is convicted of his sons crimes.
We are not animals.

How much more is God responsible for his creation, than the owner of the ox. Firstly, he knows everything, and secondly, he actually made everything.

He stopped creating long ago. So what happens after that is not his fault. No man goes to jail for the crimes his son commits.

Lastly God doesn’t feel responsible either for what we do just as I don’t feel responsible for what my now grown children do. Does anyone?

Does God hold man to higher standards than himself? Well, according to you he does!

No he doesn’t. Again we don’t blame a mother for what her grown children do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As a parent, I am morally and legally responsible for my children. If I was God though, apparently I wouldn't be responsible in way, shape or form.

Your country puts parents in jail for their grown children’s crimes???

Your response to me saying that Christians saying that God is not responsible, is to literally make another argument for how God not responsible. Amazing!

He isn’t responsible and no civilized nations bring charges against the parents of grown offenders. Sorry but they don’t.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are not morally or legally responsible after they grow up. You may be surprised to know that God respects mankind and the free will that He gave us. God loves His creation. That includes mankind, who are inclined not to reciprocate. God has made it possible for all mankind to be reconciled to their Creator. That does not mean that all mankind will accept God's provision. God will not coerce people. He could. Then God would be violating man's free will - which of course means that it would no longer be free.

God has taken responsibility as far as possible without overriding mankind's free will. And mankind's freedom has a use-by date. There won't be any free will once the day of judgement comes.

I agree except judgement might end freedom but not free will.

 

[Der Alte]

... As for the symbolism, parables are made up of symbols, and since Christ only taught in parables... well, I'll let you do the math.

Jesus only taught in parables when addressing crowds, He spoke plainly to His disciples.

 

[1213]

….While I torture mine in hell forever.

Where it is said in the Bible that Jesus tortures people in hell?

 

[Der Alte]

You, however, stated quite clearly that all of scripture, not merely parables, is symbolic. Thus, you end up with symbols being used to interpret symbols. In that case it is more than possible for an individual such as myself to ascribe some symbolic meaning to something in scripture, e.g. a donkey, and comparing all mentions of donkeys in scripture reach some thoroughly logical and consistent symbols which may flat out contradict the symbolic meaning seen by someone such as yourself regarding donkeys - the best part being, of course, that we both sincerely believe that Spirit of God has revealed these hidden symbolic meanings to us.
Now, you can do the math using your symbols.

There is a maxim for interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." But there are some folks who make whatever scripture they want figurative, symbolic etc. to make it support their assumptions/presuppositions. For example, Rev 2:16

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.​

We know that Jesus does not have a literal sword in His mouth so this is figurative.

 

[martymonster]

Where it is said in the Bible that Jesus tortures people in hell?

If God created the place, and he sends people to it, it's him who's doing the torturing.

 

[martymonster]

You, however, stated quite clearly that all of scripture, not merely parables, is symbolic. Thus, you end up with symbols being used to interpret symbols. In that case it is more than possible for an individual such as myself to ascribe some symbolic meaning to something in scripture, e.g. a donkey, and comparing all mentions of donkeys in scripture reach some thoroughly logical and consistent symbols which may flat out contradict the symbolic meaning seen by someone such as yourself regarding donkeys - the best part being, of course, that we both sincerely believe that Spirit of God has revealed these hidden symbolic meanings to us.

Now, you can do the math using your symbols.

What part of "comparing spiritual with spiritual" do you not understand? All of it, apparently.

 

[Der Alte]

If God created the place, and he sends people to it, it's him who's doing the torturing.

The word torture occurs only one time in the Bible, Heb 11:35..

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:​

Torture is never associated with God. If one is going to discuss scripture they should have the integrity to discuss the words actually in scripture.
Jesus, Himself, mentions "eternal punishment" one time.
There are some who try to argue that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" and "kolasis" does not mean "punishment."
.....Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than they know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”

The Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them. saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal life.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

This NT version can be D/L at the link above. If you choose to read this version I suggest you read the scholarship recorded in the preface.

 

[SkyWriting]

That idea would probably be a hard sell to someone being tortured for millions of years.

The torment is entirely voluntary. And it may end on judgment day.

 

[martymonster]

The torment is entirely voluntary. And it may end on judgment day.

How exactly is it voluntary?

 

[SkyWriting]

How exactly is it voluntary?

People choose not to Have God in their lives for eternity.
Wishes are granted.
The crying and gnashing of teeth is a voluntary response.
People in Hell are tormented by what they have done, not by blowtorches.

 

[martymonster]

People choose not to Have God in their lives for eternity.
Wishes are granted.
The crying and gnashing of teeth is a voluntary response.
People in Hell are tormented by what they have done, not by blowtorches.

What about the people who never even heard the name of Jesus or Yahweh? Did they choose?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I agree except judgement might end freedom but not free will.

What about the people who never even heard the name of Jesus or Yahweh? Did they choose?

When I was troubled by this issue, I asked Lord what the answer was. He said to me that if anyone, anywhere, cried out to Him, He would find a way to save them. The creation is witness to God's power and wisdom. The stars declare God's glory. Some people look at creation and say that it's just an accident. Others look and see God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I disagree. That's how we've redefined "dead" to explain the eternal torture doctrine. I don't think people intrinsically have eternal life, and see nothing in Scripture which inclines me to that belief.

The sinner isn't anywhere if he's dead. He would in effect never have existed at all.

God warned Adam that if he ate from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, he would die. Adam died. Yet he made himself a covering of fig leaves and hid from God. He had a conversation with God. But he was evicted from paradise. People are born dead in trespass and sin. So yes, the sinner exists, otherwise there would be no human race at all.

No, obviously no one intrinsically has eternal life. God ensured that by shutting down access to the tree of life. Just as well. Imagine Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc living forever.