Exploring the Lutheran Faith

[kdm1984]

@LaBèlla my mother was always preparing for some kind of future disaster -- my older half sister confirmed my mother was doing this when my sister was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s -- and I think she convinced my easily-led father to become obsessed with it in the process later in the 1990s. His own dad was an electrical engineer who was great at math, so his ego led him to think he could come up with great calculations to prove my mother's doomsday theories. It all went downhill from there. It saddens me because I think they raised me and my brother well in our early childhood years, which I remember fondly -- but as they got further and further caught up in End Times nonsense in the mid and late 1990s, my brother thought he had to hurry up and marry as a teenager before the end of the world came in 2008, which was the year my dad had figured was THE year at that time. My brother ended up killing himself in 1997 at age 16 over an online girl who rejected him. My dad then thought he could raise my brother from the dead! Only now as an adult can I see all this for what it was: absolute delusional nonsense. My parents got so, so deceived, and the consequences for our family were enormous.

As for your own perspective, avoid Calvinism at all costs -- they don't go to the kinds of excesses my parents did, but they go for another systematic, opposite approach: while they think the End Times don't matter, they nonetheless think God and the Bible and the law can be boiled down to systematic analysis, which they defend endlessly in various debates and theological arguments. That was the "opposite" road that attracted me for a time in the 2010s, but now I see that's just another bad road, if filled with very different kinds of stumbling blocks from the other one my family walked on in the mid and late 1990s.

Finally, as regards to the Holy Spirit, my only conviction there is to encourage people to never let their feelings, whims, and extroverted impulses be confused for the Spirit. That's a problem for a lot of Pentecostals in particular, and more stereotypical emotional types of women more generally. You don't seem to be either of these sorts from what I've read, so that helps in your case.

 

[bèlla]

My brother ended up killing himself in 1997 at age 16 over an online girl who rejected him. My dad then thought he could raise my brother from the dead! Only now as an adult can I see all this for what it was: absolute delusional nonsense. My parents got so, so deceived, and the consequences for our family were enormous.

I'm sorry for your loss and the deception your parents experienced. You've all paid a heavy price and it is my hope that the Lord's comfort and peace will abide with you each for all your days.

I forsook everything when I returned to God. I didn't seek to fit Him into my world. I relinquished my hold on what I knew and built a new life with Him at the forefront and center. Some things were returned and others were never redeemed. But I am bettered nonetheless.

The simplicity of my faith is founded on my dependency on Him. In the years that passed since my homecoming I've decreased in some measures and grown in others. I don't require greater knowledge. What I need most of all is more of Him. That immersion means more than any theologian or text I could consume.

I'm glimpsing the converging paths that have led me to this point. And I understand His silence. Sometimes the answer lies in greater depth not greater doing. My willingness to consider the Lutheran faith in light of my affinity for Judaism is telling. I came to faith in a synagogue and would have forsaken it if He desired me to do so. It has been a long period of discernment and I've had the privilege of experiencing other Christian traditions. Each has enriched me in some way.

Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[tampasteve]

I'm glimpsing the converging paths that have led me to this point. And I understand His silence. Sometimes the answer lies in greater depth not greater doing. My willingness to consider the Lutheran faith in light of my affinity for Judaism is telling. I came to faith in a synagogue and would have forsaken it if He desired me to do so. It has been a long period of discernment and I've had the privilege of experiencing other Christian traditions. Each has enriched me in some way.

My story took me around Judaism too, I even started conversion class. However, I have also had a draw to Lutheranism - even before I was Roman Catholic. There is just something there....something that feels right, the teachings, the openness to discuss, the Catechism, the Confession, the liturgy - I love it.

 

[bèlla]

My story took me around Judaism too, I even started conversion class. However, I have also had a draw to Lutheranism - even before I was Roman Catholic. There is just something there....something that feels right, the teachings, the openness to discuss, the Catechism, the Confession, the liturgy - I love it.

I've noticed you describe yourself as Messianic and Lutheran. Have you maintained some elements of your Jewish influences? By all accounts I am a Messianic Jew but I can't wrap my mind around its expression. It feels forced.

 

[tampasteve]

I've noticed you describe yourself as Messianic and Lutheran. Have you maintained some elements of your Jewish influences? By all accounts I am a Messianic Jew but I can't wrap my mind around its expression. It feels forced.

I do maintain it, to a degree. I read the weekly Torah and hafTorah portions and listen to a fair amount of teachings from Beth Immanuel out of Wisconsin. My wife and son and I also have shabbat prayers where we pray the kiddush. We also celebrate chanukah to a degree, but really just the prayers and lighting the candles. But as I am not Jewish I do not observe all of the Law. I tried attending local MJ synagogues, but I found the worship to be superficial and for all intents and purposes to be a charismatic evangelical protestant service with Jewish trappings and decorations. I am much more comfortable in a rabbinic synagogue.

Being 100% honest, this is one reason I attend an ELCA church. The LCMS is not exactly supportive (to be nice...) of cross religious practices while the ELCA is either tolerant or even happy with one to express one's faith in a different manner. In the end, the Western liturgy is something I love, and my European heritage also plays a role in my love of the Lutheran church.

 

[bèlla]

I do maintain it, to a degree. I read the weekly Torah and hafTorah portions and listen to a fair amount of teachings from Beth Immanuel out of Wisconsin. My wife and son and I also have shabbat prayers where we pray the kiddush. We also celebrate chanukah to a degree, but really just the prayers and lighting the candles.

I understand your plight and have traveled a similar path. Have you queried the Lord about your attraction to Jewish practices and His intent? It's a many layered question which takes time to discern but you may find the experience worthwhile.

But as I am not Jewish I do not observe all of the Law. I tried attending local MJ synagogues, but I found the worship to be superficial and for all intents and purposes to be a charismatic evangelical protestant service with Jewish trappings and decorations. I am much more comfortable in a rabbinic synagogue.

I have never attended a Messianic church but have watched a couple of services online and felt they were more akin to protestant worship than the Jewish venues I've attended. That is understandable when you consider the demographic is largely non Jewish. And perhaps its why I've had difficulty identifying in that way. My Jewishness didn't depart when I attended church or in my time away from them either. It is always present.

Being 100% honest, this is one reason I attend an ELCA church. The LCMS is not exactly supportive (to be nice...) of cross religious practices while the ELCA is either tolerant or even happy with one to express one's faith in a different manner. In the end, the Western liturgy is something I love, and my European heritage also plays a role in my love of the Lutheran church.

It would be assumed by some that you're pluralistic and practicing a kind of syncretism in your actions. And given its prevalence in some pagan paths—namely Santeria and its related traditions—I can understand their discomfort.

But this is really a question of fit and finding your place. I believe your experiences have a purpose and that will be revealed when the Lord is ready to do so. You remain in this place for a reason and my greatest hope is that you will serve Him well from that position. Whether that involves ministering to fellow Jews or being a bridge for others to their ways. You are where you belong. It was not by chance.

I can't say I practice Judaism. I'm not religious. But I respect the traditions and feel comforted when praying and attending services. Much like you, I've encountered resistance from others who hoped I'd forget but it never happened.

Hold firm to God's unchanging hand. He'll never lead you astray.

 

[tampasteve]

I understand your plight and have traveled a similar path. Have you queried the Lord about your attraction to Jewish practices and His intent? It's a many layered question which takes time to discern but you may find the experience worthwhile.

I have prayed over it, many times. At this time the Lord is calling me to be where I am at, perhaps in the future that might change, but today this path is working well.

I have never attended a Messianic church but have watched a couple of services online and felt they were more akin to protestant worship than the Jewish venues I've attended. That is understandable when you consider the demographic is largely non Jewish. And perhaps its why I've had difficulty identifying in that way. My Jewishness didn't depart when I attended church or in my time away from them either. It is always present.

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While it is understandable, it is also curious. Most gentiles are attracted to Jewish worship or theology for a number of reasons, so one would think the service would mirror a normal Jewish service more than it does. But that is probably a thread for another time.

It would be assumed by some that you're pluralistic and practicing a kind of syncretism in your actions. And given its prevalence in some pagan paths—namely Santeria and its related traditions—I can understand their discomfort.

Perhaps, but when one considers it is Jewish that one is applying to Christianity it would seem like the fears should dissipate, Christianity came out of Judaism after all. But people fear what they do not understand.

But this is really a question of fit and finding your place. I believe your experiences have a purpose and that will be revealed when the Lord is ready to do so. You remain in this place for a reason and my greatest hope is that you will serve Him well from that position. Whether that involves ministering to fellow Jews or being a bridge for others to their ways. You are where you belong. It was not by chance.

I completely agree with this.

I can't say I practice Judaism. I'm not religious. But I respect the traditions and feel comforted when praying and attending services. Much like you, I've encountered resistance from others who hoped I'd forget but it never happened.

Hold firm to God's unchanging hand. He'll never lead you astray.

Thank you, these are kind words.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think the ELCA has any particular defined stance towards religious pluralism- we don't forbid people to go to other religious services. I know there's a Vietnamese man in our congregation whose family is Catholic and Buddhist. He's actually the pastor's dentist, and came over here because our church sponsored him as a refugee, many years ago.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have never attended a Messianic church but have watched a couple of services online and felt they were more akin to protestant worship than the Jewish venues I've attended. That is understandable when you consider the demographic is largely non Jewish. And perhaps its why I've had difficulty identifying in that way. My Jewishness didn't depart when I attended church or in my time away from them either. It is always present.

It would be assumed by some that you're pluralistic and practicing a kind of syncretism in your actions. And given its prevalence in some pagan paths—namely Santeria and its related traditions—I can understand their discomfort.

But this is really a question of fit and finding your place. I believe your experiences have a purpose and that will be revealed when the Lord is ready to do so. You remain in this place for a reason and my greatest hope is that you will serve Him well from that position. Whether that involves ministering to fellow Jews or being a bridge for others to their ways. You are where you belong. It was not by chance.

I can't say I practice Judaism. I'm not religious. But I respect the traditions and feel comforted when praying and attending services. Much like you, I've encountered resistance from others who hoped I'd forget but it never happened.

I don't think being Jewish would be a problem for being Lutheran, at least in my denomination. Though it's relatively uncommon, you would not be the first Jewish inquirer. If you find a more liturigcally oriented congregation, which most of ours are now days, it also wouldn't be that foreign of an experience.

 

[bèlla]

While it is understandable, it is also curious. Most gentiles are attracted to Jewish worship or theology for a number of reasons, so one would think the service would mirror a normal Jewish service more than it does. But that is probably a thread for another time.

I would expect their expressions to come forth in a guise they can grasp. When Christianity is introduced to other cultures their worship has a flavor which differs from ours. Rightly so. Many have never been to a synagogue. How would they emulate what they've never seen?

Perhaps, but when one considers it is Jewish that one is applying to Christianity it would seem like the fears should dissipate, Christianity came out of Judaism after all. But people fear what they do not understand

There are striking differences between the two. I am less likely to be told how to approach my relationship with God by a Jew or Rabbi. They are more hands off. It's the primary reason I found my way back to Him.

The Holy Spirit was able to draw me near because I wasn't subjected to mandates. I was permitted to make my way at the pace best suited. The discussions on the weekly Parashah were enlightening. I never heard that's wrong or any suggestion that steered us away from the conclusions we surmised. I learned to trust His process through my experiences.

I am pleased to hear you've found your place.

 

[bèlla]

I don't think being Jewish would be a problem for being Lutheran, at least in my denomination. Though it's relatively uncommon, you would not be the first Jewish inquirer. If you find a more liturigcally oriented congregation, which most of ours are now days, it also wouldn't be that foreign of an experience.

That is good to hear.

I have been discerning if this was a possible step but lack a discernible connection and confirmation from the Holy Spirit. I've learned a lot from the thread and appreciate the experiences you've shared and the numerous ways the Lord is working in your lives.

 

[FireDragon76]

There are striking differences between the two. I am less likely to be told how to approach my relationship with God by a Jew or Rabbi. They are more hands off. It's the primary reason I found my way back to Him.

You will likely find something similar in a Lutheran church.

The Holy Spirit was able to draw me near because I wasn't subjected to mandates. I was permitted to make my way at the pace best suited.

I came from an Eastern Orthodox background and had a similar experience with my pastor. There was no pressure to meet other peoples expectations. My pastor accepted my clinging to Orthodox piety for a long time, as well. Unlike alot of other evangelical traditions, my pastor didn't really take issue with me relating to God mostly through praying to saints - I think he understood in time I would appreciate the Lutheran way of doing things without feeling the need to insist on it.

And in reality, it isn't that completely different in its ethos, as I mentioned earlier, there is an understanding that God is mysterious and relating to God is a genuine struggle that is ultimately personal.

 

[bèlla]

I came from an Eastern Orthodox background and had a similar experience with my pastor. There was no pressure to meet other peoples expectations. My pastor accepted my clinging to Orthodox piety for a long time, as well. Unlike alot of other evangelical traditions, my pastor didn't have a problem with me relating to God mostly through praying to saints - I think he understood in time I would appreciate the Lutheran way of doing things without feeling the need to insist on it. And in reality, it isn't that completely different in its ethos, as I mentioned earlier, there is an understanding that God is mysterious and relating to God is a genuine struggle that is ultimately personal.

It is evident that you've found great peace in Lutheran teachings and I'm glad to see that's the case. This has been a lengthy process of discernment that has finally met its end. And while it didn't lead me to a Lutheran church it has provided the answers I've sought for many years.

 

[tampasteve]

I would expect their expressions to come forth in a guise they can grasp. When Christianity is introduced to other cultures their worship has a flavor which differs from ours. Rightly so. Many have never been to a synagogue. How would they emulate what they've never seen?

Valid, but many (most) of these MJ synagogues are led by Jewish rabbis, generally from Reform or Conservative families, but they should have an idea how to structure the service. Being that as it is, if people find a home in these services that is all the better for them - it's just not for me.

There are striking differences between the two. I am less likely to be told how to approach my relationship with God by a Jew or Rabbi. They are more hands off. It's the primary reason I found my way back to Him.

As Firedragon said, in a Lutheran (and particuarly ELCA) church you are more likely to be given reign on how to worship than many Christian churches, particularly compared to a charismatic or Pentecostal type church where there are very specific ideas on how your worship experience needs to be.

The Holy Spirit was able to draw me near because I wasn't subjected to mandates. I was permitted to make my way at the pace best suited. The discussions on the weekly Parashah were enlightening. I never heard that's wrong or any suggestion that steered us away from the conclusions we surmised. I learned to trust His process through my experiences.

Agree, this is one thing that many Christians miss about Judaism. They don't understand that it is OK to have 70 different ideas or interpretations of something, that most of the Talmud and Mishna are filled with opinions, many of which actually agree with Yeshua/Christianity.

I am pleased to hear you've found your place.

And I you! If I may ask, if not the Lutheran church, where do you find your home?

 

[bèlla]

Valid, but many (most) of these MJ synagogues are led by Jewish rabbis, generally from Reform or Conservative families, but they should have an idea how to structure the service. Being that as it is, if people find a home in these services that is all the better for them - it's just not for me.

Judaism is a culture and a religion. I don't expect non Jews to engage in the way those who've experienced Jewish behavior throughout their lives. It's unrealistic. I am not surprised by the inconsistencies.

And I you! If I may ask, if not the Lutheran church, where do you find your home?

I think a Shabbat service is next and maybe a minyan down the road. I'm in need of spiritual nourishment and replenishing. The lengthy absence has been hard.

 

[tampasteve]

Judaism is a culture and a religion. I don't expect non Jews to engage in the way those who've experienced Jewish behavior throughout their lives. It's unrealistic. I am not surprised by the inconsistencies.

The real world seems to bear this to reality. However, ironically it is a particular reason why the mainstream Jewish community ridicules the MJ community aside from theology - the services just are not Jewish. The MJ synagogues may use Jewish terms and have an Israeli flag, but by and large the theology is Protestant and the service looks like almost any other non-denominational service. Don't get me started on "Davidic dance"....My view is that if gentiles desire a Jewish worship experience and are drawn to Jewish spirituality....the services should be Jewish in all but belief in Jesus/Yeshua as Messiach. There are a few communities like this, but they are not the norm in MJ. Liken this to a Protestant attracted to Eastern Orthodox Christian worship, they want the Orthodox experience and spirituality; sure there might be some Western Right parishes, but they are not the norm in Orthodoxy and most Protestants making the journey to that church are not looking for a Western liturgy or spirituality.

All that said, my views seem to be my own....the real world shows that the MJ movement is mostly attractive to gentiles looking for a Jewish flavored experience, not a Jewish Church.

I think a Shabbat service is next and maybe a minyan down the road. I'm in need of spiritual nourishment and replenishing. The lengthy absence has been hard.

That sounds like a great plan.

 

[bèlla]

The real world seems to bear this to reality. However, ironically it is a particular reason why the mainstream Jewish community ridicules the MJ community aside from theology - the services just are not Jewish.

The issue with MJ is simple. Their desire to be recognized as Jews disregards what it means to be a Jew.

For example, Eminem is viewed a talented rapper. His skill has been lauded by many. Nevertheless, no amount of prowess will make him black. Nor has he ever sought to be viewed through that lens.

Just because an individual is drawn to Jewish teachings or practices doesn't mean the community must set aside its principles and history to accommodate their wish. They are free to consider themselves anything they want but don't have the authority to hold others captive to that idea.

My view is that if gentiles desire a Jewish worship experience and are drawn to Jewish spirituality....the services should be Jewish in all but belief in Jesus/Yeshua as Messiach.

Emulating a Jewish service isn't going to reconcile their want for acceptance from the Jewish community. That's the elephant in the room.

All that said, my views seem to be my own....the real world shows that the MJ movement is mostly attractive to gentiles looking for a Jewish flavored experience, not a Jewish Church.

The issue is a group of people who are drawn to Jewish practices who wish to remain in their present condition while embracing the tenets they wish with the hope of full acceptance by its people.

I have an affinity for French and British culture. But I am ethnically derived from each. At no point would I expect them to conform their interpretation of what it means to be French or British to match my own. And while I was reared with this knowledge and experienced some aspects of the culture that's a marked difference from being wholly immersed in it as a default.

I don't have the gall to attempt such. Nor would I bemoan a Jew who felt the same.

 

[kdm1984]

Going off-topic, but the discussion of culture reminded me of all the different flavors of Protestantism in the US, and how I think so much of it comes from differences in culture and personality sometimes as much as it does differences in theology. People who are more conservative, for example, are often (though not always) less spontaneous and extroverted. I knew one extremely conservative Reformed family who went so far with this that they actually believed extroverted, spontaneous, creative, and improvisational people were inherently more sinful and depraved than introverted, methodical, left-brained people, whom they said were better able to follow laws, rules, boundaries, and regulations (they hated showy Pentecostal worship, among other things). They were quite proud that they, and at least most of their families and friends, weren't any of the four Extroverted Perceiving types in the Jungian 16 type system, popularized and known best in the public by Myers-Briggs tests -- but were instead supposedly more moral types like ISTJ, INFP, ENFJ, and ENTJ. They thought most of civilization was made up especially of ENTP and ESFP people, and that all four of the Introverted Judging types were rare despite many people commonly (and incorrectly) identifying themselves as such types on online Myers-Briggs tests. One of their goals in life was to prove this scientifically to the masses (Niednagel's Brain Types system). They haven't done so yet.

 

[FireDragon76]

Going off-topic, but the discussion of culture reminded me of all the different flavors of Protestantism in the US, and how I think so much of it comes from differences in culture and personality sometimes as much as it does differences in theology. People who are more conservative, for example, are often (though not always) less spontaneous and extroverted.

Of course, that's something that has been well-known among psychologists for some time. Authoritarian personalities usually respond more to fear than curiosity.

I knew one extremely conservative Reformed family who went so far with this that they actually believed extroverted, spontaneous, creative, and improvisational people were inherently more sinful and depraved than introverted, methodical, left-brained people, whom they said were better able to follow laws, rules, boundaries, and regulations (they hated showy Pentecostal worship, among other things).

I think I have a clue what that's about, because I have met those types. And with the typical perspective on predestination, it probably didn't bother them that much to believe that people were wired from birth for hell, no doubt. They probably took a perverse pleasure in not being one of "those people".

 

[tampasteve]

The issue with MJ is simple. Their desire to be recognized as Jews disregards what it means to be a Jew.

For example, Eminem is viewed a talented rapper. His skill has been lauded by many. Nevertheless, no amount of prowess will make him black. Nor has he ever sought to be viewed through that lens.

Just because an individual is drawn to Jewish teachings or practices doesn't mean the community must set aside its principles and history to accommodate their wish. They are free to consider themselves anything they want but don't have the authority to hold others captive to that idea.


Emulating a Jewish service isn't going to reconcile their want for acceptance from the Jewish community. That's the elephant in the room.

I cannot say that I disagree, but the issue (to me) is not the gentiles that attend, I think most (not all of course) understand that they are not Jewish. In the end it is probably a moot point, Messianic Jews (not Messianic gentiles) will never be accepted as Jewish by other Jews, so they should try and be comfortable in their own choices. To me it is simply a difference of what are trying to be? Do you want to be Jewish in worship and spirituality but also believe that the Messiach has come? If so, then it would make sense to have a Jewish service that you know, looks and is Jewish.

Regardless though, in the end this is simply my opinion, and obviously people and MJ congregations are doing well in their choices.

The issue is a group of people who are drawn to Jewish practices who wish to remain in their present condition while embracing the tenets they wish with the hope of full acceptance by its people.

I have an affinity for French and British culture. But I am ethnically derived from each. At no point would I expect them to conform their interpretation of what it means to be French or British to match my own. And while I was reared with this knowledge and experienced some aspects of the culture that's a marked difference from being wholly immersed in it as a default.

I don't have the gall to attempt such. Nor would I bemoan a Jew who felt the same.

Exactly. I believe they need to shed the Protestant pretenses and either worship and live like Jewish believers, or worship and live like Protestants (or whatever).