Exploring the Lutheran Faith

[bèlla]

I appreciate that the ELCA is liturgical and sacramental, and we generally have communion every week. It takes the more radical thought of Luther seriously, which is what attracted me in the first place, encountering Luther in an Orthodox context. Being in the ELCA has helped me to understand a Christian approach to ethics that is deeper and more comprehensive than what I found in the Episcopal Church or the Orthodox church.

In your opinion, how are Luther's radical thoughts displayed? Based on your experiences and observations.

Due to the ELCA's influence, how would you describe Christian ethics to a layperson?

 

[bèlla]

I use...

Luther's Small Catechism by Concordia Publishing House.

Lutheran Hour Ministries Devotions 3.1

It's online at Issues, Etc. but I usually listen via the Lutheran Public Radio app.

Thank you for sharing. I'll check them out.

 

[bèlla]

I mean episcopal in polity/structure. In this case that means they have a Bishop, diocses, etc. Similar to the Catholic Church or the Anglican Churches (like the Episcopal Church), but not quite - but you get the idea about how a church as heirachy. That said, the ELCA is more modified, they have a head Bishop and Bishops over each diocese, but the congregations themselves have a lot of freedom in how they express the faith, choosing their pastor, and to how liberal or conservative they might be.

Thank you for clarifying.

Are most Lutheran branches structured in a similar fashion?

Overall the ELCA is more liberal or middle, but each congregation has rights to decide in the end. For example, the denomination allows homosexual marriage, but each church decides if they will perform them. In general the ELCA is more conservative in the worship style, a typical service looks much like a Catholic Mass, which is in keeping with the history of the Lutheran Mass/Divine Service.

I am aware of their stance on the subject and it's one of the reasons it is not the right fit for me. I cannot give ground to Satan on this topic or others for I will surely make similar arguments about my struggles. There is no malady that Christ's sacrifice has not and cannot defeat. This is my conviction but I'm aware others feel differently.

 

[FireDragon76]

In your opinion, how are Luther's radical thoughts displayed? Based on your experiences and observations.

We are probably the least legalistic church I have ever encountered. We also have clear teachings about the role of conscience and respect for other peoples consciences, and the limits to which our religion can place burdens on people in that regard.

Due to the ELCA's influence, how would you describe Christian ethics to a layperson?

Religious humanism, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, being a person for others. To do justice and to love mercy.

It is very different from most churches you are probably familiar with, so I'm going to give you a link to one Lutheran theologian who greatly influenced my religious journey as a Christian. This series by a Disciples of Christ pastor helped me to understand Dietrich Bonhoeffer's particular take on Lutheranism, which has been an important influence on several religious traditions, not just the ELCA.

Experimental Theology: Letters from Cell 92: Part 1, A New Theology

Be warned, it's not necessarily light reading.

You might want to check out the 2000 biopic, Bonhoeffer: Agent of Grace, too, as it might help you clue you in to who he was, that might help make sense of his difficult and often misunderstood language.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am aware of their stance on the subject and it's one of the reasons it is not the right fit for me. I cannot give ground to Satan on this topic or others for I will surely make similar arguments about my struggles. There is no malady that Christ's sacrifice has not and cannot defeat. This is my conviction but I'm aware others feel differently.

You should not evaluate a church on those grounds. You must ask yourself whether its foundations are sound- does its teachings reflect the grace and mercy of Christ? Not whether its teachings are things you want to hear.

I took my personal quest into Lutheranism extremely seriously. It involved alot of struggle with own my conscience in the Orthodox church. There was no triviality about it, like not agreeing with things I found inconvenient or personally difficult. If you are really going to discern God's call, be willing to be challenged and step out of your comfort zone.

 

[bèlla]

We are probably the least legalistic church I have ever encountered. We also have clear teachings about the role of conscience and respect for other peoples consciences, and the limits to which our religion can place burdens on people in that regard.

These things are echoed in the bible but sometimes we require other methods for embrace. It would appear you've benefited from this path.

Religious humanism, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, being a person for others. To do justice and to love mercy.

I'm familiar with Bonhoeffer. Thank you for the link and insight.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Thank you for clarifying.

Are most Lutheran branches structured in a similar fashion?



I am aware of their stance on the subject and it's one of the reasons it is not the right fit for me. I cannot give ground to Satan on this topic or others for I will surely make similar arguments about my struggles. There is no malady that Christ's sacrifice has not and cannot defeat. This is my conviction but I'm aware others feel differently.

If that stance of the ELCA Synod Lutheran is the wrong fit then might I suggest one of the confessional Lutheran Synod. I am very happy with my recent membership in the LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. You may find a fit that seems to be what God wanted for you.

 

[bèlla]

You should not evaluate a church on those grounds. You must ask yourself whether its foundations are sound- does its teachings reflect the grace and mercy of Christ? Not whether its teachings are things you want to hear.

My allegiance is to God and the Spirit within me. That is my barometer in life and all matters of faith. No creed or religious body will supplant Him. I must ask myself whether its theology and fruit bear witness to God. Everything else is immaterial. That is my benchmark.

I took my personal quest into Lutheranism extremely seriously. It involved alot of struggle with own my conscience in the Orthodox church. There was no triviality about it, like not agreeing with things I found inconvenient or personally difficult. If you are really going to discern God's call, be willing to be challenged and step out of your comfort zone.

I am aware of my calling and purpose and have been avidly walking them out for several years. Both have been confirmed by laymen and religious leaders. That is not the focus of my query.

I have absolute trust that the Lord will lead me to the right place. Whether that's Lutheranism or another path remains to be seen.

 

[bèlla]

If that stance of the ELCA Synod Lutheran is the wrong fit then might I suggest one of the confessional Lutheran Synod. I am very happy with my recent membership in the LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. You may find a fit that seems to be what God wanted for you.

Thank you for the suggestion. I've read a little about them which prompted my question. Can you elaborate on your experiences? What drew you to LCMS?

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Thank you for the suggestion. I've read a little about them which prompted my question. Can you elaborate on your experiences? What drew you to LCMS?

I read the small catechism of Luther and the Augsburg Confession because the LCMS church was right down the street plus someone had suggested that since I had left the Roman Catholic Church that I might be interested in the LCMS. I was very pleasantly surprised and found that although some synods of the Lutheran church thought of the Confessions in the Book of Concord as only historical documents that were important to pay attention to while also paying attention to society that the Missouri Synod took them as written without being caught up in the current societal demands. (The Confessions being various documents explaining the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible.) They-the LCMS-seem to me to have a strict interpretation of the Bible while keeping the Mercy that was shown by Jesus in numerous situations. I wanted that balance.

While I was part of the Catholic Church for 20 years, I knew just a handful of people. In this church I have already been taken in by a number of people. I realize that part of this is just the particular congregation I've been lucky enough to be a part of, however I think that since I was a member of a number of different Catholic congregations in a number of states, that the difference must somehow be also in the beliefs. The fruit is very apparent in this synod. They also walk their talk and are quite involved in community charities.

 

[tampasteve]

Thank you for clarifying.

Are most Lutheran branches structured in a similar fashion?

No, most are congregational or loose confederations, especially in the USA. The ELCA moved into its structure because of the communion with the Episcopal Church USA (which also gives it Apostolic Succession), among other reasons. There are other Lutheran churches globally with the same (or similar) structure, however. But the main ones in the USA such as LCMS, WELS, and the smaller synods are not episcopal in polity. We discussed a possible move of the LCMS into a similar polity in this thread:LCMS Only: Would you support a change to an episcopal polity?

 

[FireDragon76]

Steve, we did not change our structure per se, just letting Anglicans put hands on our bishops. We still have the same polity. Even though we have bishops, in reality we are very much congregationalist. Bishops rarely have the kind of oversight they do, for instance, in Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism.

 

[Resha Caner]

As for my question, how has Lutheranism impacted your person and relationship with God? Why is it the right path for you?

That's a hard question to answer. I would use my biological father as an analogy. What would I say if someone asked me: Why was your dad the right path for you? Hmm. Dad is not a "path" that I chose. He's just Dad.

I understand you're asking about Lutheranism, not God, but the analogy still applies. I often describe Lutheranism as very "earthy". Though Lutheranism has a robust intellectual heritage, it's always been used more for explaining/defending to non-Lutherans than for living the faith with Lutherans. You can see that if you read something like Jaroslav Pelikan's From Luther to Kierkegaard. Most Lutherans probably never go beyond the small catechism.

Once you're Lutheran, you probably only think about what Lutheranism is when you're talking to non-Lutherans. Other than that, you're just a Christian.

I'm probably over-emphasizing that point, but it's important to understanding why I am where I am.

I'm a very intellectual person, so when I was young I thought Lutherans were dull-witted, shallow, and lacking in curiosity. I read widely among non-Lutheran philosophers & theologians. A big epiphany for me was Augustine's City of God. I was eager to dig into Augustine's arguments on theodicy. But, after reading this massive book, I came away with the impression that his answer was: because that's how God did it. I was extremely disappointed. So I did my own philosophical pondering. I spent years building up my own system. I thought I had something really awesome. And when I was done, the essence of my conclusions was: because that's how God did it.

I looked around at my fellow Lutherans, realized that's where they had been all along (and with much less soul-wrenching agony), and humbly accepted their earthy approach.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's a hard question to answer. I would use my biological father as an analogy. What would I say if someone asked me: Why was your dad the right path for you? Hmm. Dad is not a "path" that I chose. He's just Dad.

I understand you're asking about Lutheranism, not God, but the analogy still applies. I often describe Lutheranism as very "earthy". Though Lutheranism has a robust intellectual heritage, it's always been used more for explaining/defending to non-Lutherans than for living the faith with Lutherans. You can see that if you read something like Jaroslav Pelikan's From Luther to Kierkegaard. Most Lutherans probably never go beyond the small catechism.

Once you're Lutheran, you probably only think about what Lutheranism is when you're talking to non-Lutherans. Other than that, you're just a Christian.

I'm probably over-emphasizing that point, but it's important to understanding why I am where I am.

I'm a very intellectual person, so when I was young I thought Lutherans were dull-witted, shallow, and lacking in curiosity. I read widely among non-Lutheran philosophers & theologians. A big epiphany for me was Augustine's City of God. I was eager to dig into Augustine's arguments on theodicy. But, after reading this massive book, I came away with the impression that his answer was: because that's how God did it. I was extremely disappointed. So I did my own philosophical pondering. I spent years building up my own system. I thought I had something really awesome. And when I was done, the essence of my conclusions was: because that's how God did it.

I looked around at my fellow Lutherans, realized that's where they had been all along (and with much less soul-wrenching agony), and humbly accepted their earthy approach.

I think you maybe (?) missed the point of reading The City of God. It's like what the Orthodox say about theology being doxology. Approaching it with an overly utilitiarian mindset simply doesn't do the material justice. Perhaps part of it is the attitude inherited from modernity where we evaluate everything in a very utilitarian fashion, "How is this useful to me?" etc. I notice Lutherans frequently make this sort of judgement, being very much pragmatic. But that's missing out of another dimension of life altogethere.

 

[Resha Caner]

I think you maybe (?) missed the point of reading The City of God. It's like what the Orthodox say about theology being doxology. Approaching it with an overly utilitiarian mindset simply doesn't do the material justice. Perhaps part of it is the attitude inherited from modernity where we evaluate everything in a very utilitarian fashion, "How is this useful to me?" etc. I notice Lutherans frequently make this sort of judgement, being very much pragmatic. But that's missing out of another dimension of life altogethere.

I take many different approaches to reading. With respect to Augustine, I read his Confessions simply for pleasure, which I think is closer to the approach you're indicating. But it's pretty obvious that much of City of God is a defense of Christianity against those Romans who were blaming Christians for the plagues descending on the empire.

Further, what you're saying was part of my point. Maybe "doxology rather than theology" would be a good descriptor of Lutheranism if it didn't give an impression of charismatics raising hands, swaying to the music, being "led" by the spirit, etc.

So, I think it's just part of who I am. Curiosity makes me analytical. For example, with film (a hobby of mine). To some extent I miss my younger days when I could just experience a film rather than analyze it, but I still have some ability to switch off my analytical tendencies if I choose.

 

[tampasteve]

Steve, we did not change our structure per se, just letting Anglicans put hands on our bishops. We still have the same polity. Even though we have bishops, in reality we are very much congregationalist. Bishops rarely have the kind of oversight they do, for instance, in Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism.

Right, I know that the churches have the most say and it is in reality a mixed polity, but thanks for clarifying the first part - I was not aware that the predecessors to the ELCA were structured the same.

 

[FireDragon76]

Steve, we did not change our structure per se, just letting Anglicans put hands on our bishops. We still have the same polity. Even though we have bishops, in reality we are very much congregationalist. Bishops rarely have the kind of oversight they do, for instance, in Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism.

To be fair, though (and just remembering some details), at the second to last congregational meeting, we were informed that the ELCA has recently changed their policies about how you can leave the denomination. I think the 2009 events caused many people to realize that it's not far to just announce you are going to leave without warning the denomination of your intentions well in advance. So we agreed that congregations have to tell the denominaton about any desire to leave well before they actually do so, and comply with a procedural process.

So perhaps our polity IS indeed changing? Frankly, I think this is a positive step. Too much congregationalism is not a good thing, in my opinion. In an interconnected world, it hurts mission. We need to be cooperating more and not merely insular.

 

[FireDragon76]

I take many different approaches to reading. With respect to Augustine, I read his Confessions simply for pleasure, which I think is closer to the approach you're indicating. But it's pretty obvious that much of City of God is a defense of Christianity against those Romans who were blaming Christians for the plagues descending on the empire.

Further, what you're saying was part of my point. Maybe "doxology rather than theology" would be a good descriptor of Lutheranism if it didn't give an impression of charismatics raising hands, swaying to the music, being "led" by the spirit, etc.

No, nothing like that. Paul's theology is really full of this sort of thing in his epistles. He will reveal a mystery and he will expound on it, and then he will move on to wonder and praise. It's very much a pre-scholastic way of doing theology, and a perhaps foreign to Lutheran scholasticism where you lay out arguments and trade barbs back and forth about who has the most clever arguments.

So, I think it's just part of who I am. Curiosity makes me analytical. For example, with film (a hobby of mine). To some extent I miss my younger days when I could just experience a film rather than analyze it, but I still have some ability to switch off my analytical tendencies if I choose.

I am analytical too but the cool thing is when both happens.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

If I could, I'd go LCMS. That said, neither the LCMS nor the ELCA exist here. Someday, I hope to join the LCK.

 

[Resha Caner]

Paul's theology is really full of this sort of thing in his epistles. He will reveal a mystery and he will expound on it, and then he will move on to wonder and praise.

Yes, I got that.