Exploring the Lutheran Faith

[tampasteve]

In the end though, how this relates to Lutheranism. I think that many (most?) Lutherans are comfortable in their choice of church for many reasons. To me the church is a bastion of thinking, liturgy, and history, but not so heavy handed to believe that it has the only way to salvation or the only way something can be expressed. Lutherans, by and large, are accepting to discuss and see other ideas. I think this stems back to Martin Luther himself, he was willing to reach out to other people and faiths - even if they and he disagreed in the end. Some synods are more unbending, but globally the Lutheran church is willing to discuss and hold hands with other Christians. Our strength is found in the history and lineage of the faith, we lay claim to the history of the Western Church - while acknowledging the shortcoming of that organization that gave rise to the Lutheran church itself.

 

[FireDragon76]

It really goes back to alot of the origins of the modern Messianic movement in the 60's, and the assumptions of the kind of Christianity they were trying to contextualize, which was typically based off the narrow experiences of American fundamentalist evangelicalism. And that kind of religion doesn't have alot of cultural cachet with anybody, once you step outside its little bubble. I've never known anybody, at least in the past, who was Jewish that actually was attracted to it. Whereas I've known several people that were Jewish that either had a significant interest in Christianity or were themselves Christians (one was a deacon in the Episcopal Church), but typically they were interested in liturgical churches with deep intellectual and ethical traditions. And I think that really makes sense, given the kinds of personalities they had.

 

[FireDragon76]

In the end though, how this relates to Lutheranism. I think that many (most?) Lutherans are comfortable in their choice of church for many reasons. To me the church is a bastion of thinking, liturgy, and history, but not so heavy handed to believe that it has the only way to salvation or the only way something can be expressed. Lutherans, by and large, are accepting to discuss and see other ideas. I think this stems back to Martin Luther himself, he was willing to reach out to other people and faiths - even if they and he disagreed in the end. Some synods are more unbending, but globally the Lutheran church is willing to discuss and hold hands with other Christians. Our strength is found in the history and lineage of the faith, we lay claim to the history of the Western Church - while acknowledging the shortcoming of that organization that gave rise to the Lutheran church itself.

I think the important thing about the ELCA for me is that there's nothing really all that offensive about it its actual public face. We do extend grace to alot of folks that some Christians think we should not, but that's also part of why I like it. But when you listen to folks like we've had as presidents, like Bishop Hanson or Bishop Eaton, they sound more like Mr. Rogers than Jerry Falwell. And I like that. I'm tired of the public face of Christianity being a stern voice with a long list of "thou shalt not's" that they expect to beat you into submission with.

 

[FireDragon76]

Years ago I found this book interesting to read, it basically confirms alot of what Steve was saying:

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Ju...ssianic&qid=1555013501&s=gateway&sr=8-2-fkmr0

I notice in particular the idea of Messianic religion seems to open up a can of spiritual confusion in gentiles. There have been a disproportionate number of extremists and oddballs of all sorts attracted to, or cross-pollinated by various facets of the movement. Perhaps the fact it pretends to be "not Christian" and to speak with a purer voice accounts for alot of that.

 

[bèlla]

I cannot say that I disagree, but the issue (to me) is not the gentiles that attend, I think most (not all of course) understand that they are not Jewish. In the end it is probably a moot point, Messianic Jews (not Messianic gentiles) will never be accepted as Jewish by other Jews, so they should try and be comfortable in their own choices. To me it is simply a difference of what are trying to be? Do you want to be Jewish in worship and spirituality but also believe that the Messiach has come? If so, then it would make sense to have a Jewish service that you know, looks and is Jewish.

Are you referencing ethnic Jews (or converts) in your Messianic Jews descriptor?

Exactly. I believe they need to shed the Protestant pretenses and either worship and live like Jewish believers, or worship and live like Protestants (or whatever).

Perhaps that's the issue and they can't. Maybe that's the divide they're struggling with. Worship is very personal and I'm reluctant to point someone in a direction their spirit has no wish to travel.

Conversations like these are helpful because I'm able to hear the MJ perspective. And while I'm conversant in the Jewish one it's a fine line. There are things I'll never say out of respect for MJ's and others like them.

 

[tampasteve]

Are you referencing ethnic Jews (or converts) in your Messianic Jews descriptor?

Anyone that is "Jewish" by standards that might be met by Reform at minimum, so they could be Jewish by conversion or birth. Messianic Judaism does not do conversions, overall. So, in Messianic Judaism you are either a Messianic Gentile, a Messianic Jew, or many might say they are followers of "Messianic Judaism", but that does not mean they are claiming to be Jewish....unless they are the fringe "one Law" of Messianic Judaism that does believe we are all Jews now and we are all bound to the full Law.

 

[bèlla]

Years ago I found this book interesting to read, it basically confirms alot of what Steve was saying

Thank you for sharing the link. It looks like an interesting read.

[quoteI notice in particular the idea of Messianic religion seems to open up a can of spiritual confusion in gentiles. There have been a disproportionate number of extremists and oddballs of all sorts attracted to, or cross-pollinated by various facets of the movement. Perhaps the fact it pretends to be "not Christian" and to speak with a purer voice accounts for alot of that.[/QUOTE]

I have enjoyed my discourse with Steve. He provides a balanced perspective. I've encountered others who aligned themselves with MJ or other Hebraic teachings. And the approach was such a mish mash of principles it's easy to see how confusion follows.

I don't understand the distancing of Christianity. It is evident from their beliefs and practices that they are wholly Christian. Why is that a problem?

 

[bèlla]

Anyone that is "Jewish" by standards that might be met by Reform at minimum, so they could be Jewish by conversion or birth. Messianic Judaism does not do conversions, overall. So, in Messianic Judaism you are either a Messianic Gentile, a Messianic Jew, or many might say they are followers of "Messianic Judaism", but that does not mean they are claiming to be Jewish....unless they are the fringe "one Law" of Messianic Judaism that does believe we are all Jews now and we are all bound to the full Law.

Thank you for clarifying. I have never encountered the term outside of Christian circles. I've met Jews who believe in Christ. They identify as Christians in their faith and always Jews nonetheless.

In your opinion, what is the purpose of the Messianic label? Is it necessary?

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for sharing the link. It looks like an interesting read.

I have enjoyed my discourse with Steve. He provides a balanced perspective. I've encountered others who aligned themselves with MJ or other Hebraic teachings. And the approach was such a mish mash of principles it's easy to see how confusion follows.

I don't understand the distancing of Christianity. It is evident from their beliefs and practices that they are wholly Christian. Why is that a problem?

The book is worth reading, Stan Telchin explained it much better than I could, but I'll give it a shot: I think it has to do with the perception that Christianity is alienating to Jews, so if we do a bit of song and dance about not really being Christian, then maybe we can win more souls. As I sort of emphasized, the missiology really comes from American fundamentalist evangelicalism where being intellectually dishonest is considered ethical behavior if it leads people to make that all important decision for Christ (BTW, not a very Lutheran approach at all).

You are very much right about it being a mishmash of principles, that is my perception as well, having watched it on this forum for the better part of a decade.

 

[bèlla]

I think it has to do with the perception that Christianity is alienating to Jews, so if we do a bit of song and dance about not really being Christian, then maybe we can win more souls.

You are speaking the truth. I heard a prominent person in those circles at an event several years ago. He was addressing the group's approach for ministering to Jews. I have never felt greater shame than I did at that moment.

As I sort of emphasized, the missiology really comes from American fundamentalist evangelicalism where being intellectually dishonest is considered ethical behavior if it leads people to make that all important decision for Christ (BTW, not a very Lutheran approach at all).

I have encountered a similar ideal. 'By any means necessary' is the overarching theme. They reference Paul's statement of "becoming all things to all men" as justification for their actions. People do strange things in the name of God that He never sanctioned.

You are very much right about it being a mishmash of principles, that is my perception as well, having watched it on this forum for the better part of a decade.

I appreciate your feedback. There are moments when I feel we've lost trust in God's ability to win people to Himself. We think we're the lone source. And that isn't true.

I am happy to hear that the Lutheran faith holds a different mindset. Your comments (and others) have given me a resource for fellow Jews who may wish to learn more.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have encountered a similar ideal. 'By any means necessary' is the overarching theme. They reference Paul's statement of "becoming all things to all men" as justification for their actions. People do strange things in the name of God that He never sanctioned.

I think they are understanding what Paul meant by that through something that is peculiarly American. Keep in mind that kind of American religion has always been influenced by an ethos that blurs the lines between showmanship and salesmanship, going all the way back to the early 20th century with the preacher Billy Sunday.

 

[kdm1984]

I think they are understanding what Paul meant by that through something that is peculiarly American. Keep in mind that kind of American religion has always been influenced by an ethos that blurs the lines between showmanship and salesmanship, going all the way back to the early 20th century with the preacher Billy Sunday.

I was contemplating this very thing earlier today. I've been to churches where the pastor is like a theatrical salesman, witty comedian, and dynamic storyteller up on stage. This was especially an issue in IFB and Calvary Chapel in a couple of churches I went to. I thought of the Reformed Niednagels and how they labeled this sort of person the generic "ENTP" type -- as though a stern, authoritarian, harsh ISTJ Puritan is better. The Apostle Paul's commands for church structure would seem to be somewhere in between. I know the Brain Typists always contended Paul was an ENTJ...

Anyway, I'm in an LCMS church now where the liturgy in and of itself seems to reduce theatrical and salesmanship tendencies, though I don't think either of the pastors are especially prone to them anyway. Niednagel would probably label them both ENTP, but they don't portray the ENTP Hollywood actor, car salesman stereotypes.

 

[bèlla]

I think they are understanding what Paul meant by that through something that is peculiarly American. Keep in mind that kind of American religion has always been influenced by an ethos that blurs the lines between showmanship and salesmanship, going all the way back to the early 20th century with the preacher Billy Sunday.

Yes, I see traces of this in certain preachers and televangelists. It feels more like a pitch than a message from God.

 

[bèlla]

I know the Brain Typists always contended Paul was an ENTJ.

I've never considered this but it's an interesting suggestion. I'm an ENTJ. I'd be curious to see how he fared in other personality tests. Many are strong-willed and charismatic. It isn't as overt as some and this is useful in persuasive arguments or disarming an opponent.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, I see traces of this in certain preachers and televangelists. It feels more like a pitch than a message from God.

Well, frankly that's because it is. The sacramental nature of homiletics and preachig isn't necessarily something that is part of their religious tradition. They operate from a relatively modern (and peculiar and insular in its own way) view of epistemology or philosophy of knowledge, one that dates from the 18th and 19th century, for the most part. Scottish Commmon Sense realism pervades most of the American evangelical subculture in the US, and was even influential in the assumptions behind the theologians at Princeton that were the intellectual muscle in this religious tradition.

Here's an article on SCSR:

Scottish common sense realism - Wikipedia

And here's an ordinary layperson explaining her own religious experiences in a fundamentalist Baptist church in terms of SCSR:

Fundamentalist Christianity's Philosophical Roots: An Infographic - Sarah Bereza

Above all SCSR eschews the things that made sacramentalism possible, like appreciation of mystery as a potential encounter with God. Paradox and dialectic terrified them, everything must be neatly resolved. So you can see where alot of American evangelicalism gets its mindset.

 

[tampasteve]

I have enjoyed my discourse with Steve. He provides a balanced perspective. I've encountered others who aligned themselves with MJ or other Hebraic teachings. And the approach was such a mish mash of principles it's easy to see how confusion follows.

It is very much a mish-mash or principles and beliefs. There really isn't a overarching stream or organization managing it - so people are up to their own devices and thoughts. This enables anyone from Hebrew Roots to Orthodox Oneness Sephardic congregations, to middle of the road MJAA Protestant Messianic congregations to coexist, albeit not peacefully.

I don't understand the distancing of Christianity. It is evident from their beliefs and practices that they are wholly Christian. Why is that a problem?

This is two fold. The higher up organization among the MJAA and SDA Messianic congregations uses it as a tool to try and attract Jewish people (with not great effect). The gentiles involved at the community level prefer to avoid the "Christian" label for a number of reasons. I myself did not take the "Christian" name for a while - there are even old posts on this forum that I state this. For myself, and many others, the "Christian" label carries connotations that I wanted to avoid. I was just coming back into faith in Messiah, and coming from a search into Judaism, it seemed natural to say "I am not a Christian, I follow Messianic Judaism which believes Yeshua is the Messiach".

Thank you for clarifying. I have never encountered the term outside of Christian circles. I've met Jews who believe in Christ. They identify as Christians in their faith and always Jews nonetheless.

True, and there are some on these forums too. However, the Jewish community as a whole labels them apostates and many will not consider any children they have after converting to be Jews. Do these people care? Some do, some don't, it just depends. The bigger issue is that once they become Christians many/most are taught that they can stop following Jewish custom and are no longer bound to any of the Law. That is probably a thread for another time, but in essence many stop being Jewish culturally and religiously. Not all of course, but the lions share do.

In your opinion, what is the purpose of the Messianic label? Is it necessary?

Necessary? Yes and no. I think that it is necessary as the Jewish community already thinks MJ are just Christians in disguise, if the MJ Synagogues dropped that term then it would be even more deceptive. If they drop the term and just say they are another church, that is another issue to them. Essentially they are stuck between not wanting to appear to be Christians, but also not wanting to be fully Jewish. This might sound harsh, but the reality is that many MJs are just Christians playing dress up. Their faith is fully Protestant, their worship is evangelical Protestant too. They just wear a kippah (maybe) and prayer shaw (not all communities allow gentiles to wear them though), say "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus" and celebrate some Jewish holidays in addition to Christian ones. This is a stereotype, there are some communities with a much more Jewish faith that study Torah and Talmud, that follow the Law appropriately for Jews or gentiles, etc.

 

[bèlla]

The bigger issue is that once they become Christians many/most are taught that they can stop following Jewish custom and are no longer bound to any of the Law. That is probably a thread for another time, but in essence many stop being Jewish culturally and religiously. Not all of course, but the lions share do.

I've been returning to God's workmanship on occasion when I ponder this subject. I'm at peace about the beauty of His will and its perfection. And I'm comfortable with not knowing the reasons behind some truths that He's chosen to keep to Himself. I don't know if that contributes to the joy I feel in Jewish surroundings. I never felt the necessity to do or become. Being was enough. I can't imagine forsaking my identity. It would be akin to cutting out my heart.

Essentially they are stuck between not wanting to appear to be Christians, but also not wanting to be fully Jewish.

They are stuck because this is an instrument of man's undertaking. Not God's. The confusion and disharmony you're seeing is their attempt to operate outside of His direction and anointing. While His intentions may have been along similar lines they've moved outside of His timing and the fallout is evident.

The spirit I've encountered feels forced. As if it's been hindered. It doesn't flow. It's akin to the kid who uses lingo to fit in and everyone's staring at him. Suffocating your identity is harmful and is usually a predecessor of group think.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If I could, I'd go LCMS. That said, neither the LCMS nor the ELCA exist here. Someday, I hope to join the LCK.

I'm sure that you have seen this, but for others; confessional Lutheranism is present in Korea: 기독교한국루터회 총회

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I'm sure that you have seen this, but for others; confessional Lutheranism is present in Korea: 기독교한국루터회 총회

Yes, thanks, I know. However, there isn't an English congregation in the cities in which I live.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do maintain it, to a degree. I read the weekly Torah and hafTorah portions and listen to a fair amount of teachings from Beth Immanuel out of Wisconsin. My wife and son and I also have shabbat prayers where we pray the kiddush. We also celebrate chanukah to a degree, but really just the prayers and lighting the candles. But as I am not Jewish I do not observe all of the Law. I tried attending local MJ synagogues, but I found the worship to be superficial and for all intents and purposes to be a charismatic evangelical protestant service with Jewish trappings and decorations. I am much more comfortable in a rabbinic synagogue.

Being 100% honest, this is one reason I attend an ELCA church. The LCMS is not exactly supportive (to be nice...) of cross religious practices while the ELCA is either tolerant or even happy with one to express one's faith in a different manner. In the end, the Western liturgy is something I love, and my European heritage also plays a role in my love of the Lutheran church.

Probably a bit of a tangent, but I was reminded of it from this post. The first Lutheran church I was part of, back before I had to move to a new city, our pastor came from a religiously mixed family. His sister was a rabbi (Reformed Judaism). So we were able to, on a Maundy Thursday service, celebrate a fairly traditional Seder (technically before or after the Service, I don't quite recall completely) using the Haggadah that pastor's sister's synagogue used. It was a rather lovely experience. The intent was to be respectful of the Jewish traditions, rather than simply appropriate them.

One of my chief criticism against the Messianic movement, in general, tends to be that it often seems little more than Evangelicalism donning a kippah. I don't actually have a problem with Jewish Christians observing Jewish observances or traditions; but I find it mildly frustrating when some self-described Messianic Jews insist that what they are doing is identical with first century Christian practice, since for the most part they have simply blended modern Evangelical worship with the trappings of Ashkenazi Jewish traditions. Obviously this does not apply to all self-described Messianics, and especially not to Jewish Christians in general.

It's also worth mentioning that in my early days of religious investigation (around the age of 17) I had a several month fling with Messianic Judaism (I also had a very brief affair with Oneness Pentecostalism during this time). I fell into it hard, fast, and it didn't last long, but there was a small window where I was going around insisting on saying I was Jewish, refusing to observe Christian holidays, insisted on saying Yeshua instead of Jesus, etc. I think I even, at the time, tried telling actual Jews on a discussion forum at the time that they weren't really Jews, but that I was. The sheer level of cringe I feel just thinking about back then is almost unbearable.

-CryptoLUtheran