Evolution Lesson

tansy

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Something to consider . . .

HIV attaches to a protein on host cells called CCR5. As it turns out, people with a mutation in CCR5 are resistant to HIV. This mutation was just sitting out in the human population, but when HIV came around it turned out to be useful.


People with two copies of the CCR5 delta32 gene (inherited from both parents) are virtually immune to HIV infection. This occurs in about 1% of Caucasian people.

One copy of CCR5-delta32 seems to give some protection against infection, and makes the disease less severe if infection occurs. This is more common, it is found in up to 20% of Caucasians.
The Evolving Genetics of HIV | Understanding Genetics

If we decide to eliminate genetic diversity in the name of human bigotry and bias, we may actually be eliminating mutations that the human population will need farther down the road. A genetically diverse population is the best bet for meeting the challenges our species will face in the future.

That's extremely interesting. Thanks
 
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Loudmouth

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No, I realise that the theory of evolution doesn't state that, I was really just saying that with modern genetic engineering, it would be rather horrifying if people similar to Hitler and his ilk decided that they wanted to use it to eliminate certain groups of people, or 'improve' them. (I think, though I may be wrong, that they thought Australian aboriginals were further down the evolutionary scale than others).

I assumed that you understood the difference between the theory of evolution and eugenics, so no worries. In these discussion it is often helpful to bring up the Is/Ought problem and how we determine our morality independently of how nature operates.

I wonder if the same would hold true of some other species..if they were separated from their natural kind, would they not develop properly? Of course, I suppose we've seen that with some wild animals, perhaps rescued having been injured or orphaned, got used to humans, but not learnt hunting skills or how to survive in the wild. Yes, it's very interesting :)

That's a good question. Dogs seem to do well being part of a human pack, and chimps seem to have done well in human care. But who knows . . .

On a slightly different note, there was a scientist who raised his own child right along side a baby chimp. Him and his wife treated both babies exactly the same in every way. During the experiment the chimp baby hit a cognitive wall and didn't develop any further. More interestingly, the scientists stopped the experiment somewhat abruptly. Some think it was due to the fact that their human baby was starting to mimic chimp sounds and they were worried that their human child would not develop properly.

This Guy Simultaneously Raised a Chimp and a Baby in Exactly the Same Way To See What Would Happen | Smart News | Smithsonian
 
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tansy

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I assumed that you understood the difference between the theory of evolution and eugenics, so no worries. In these discussion it is often helpful to bring up the Is/Ought problem and how we determine our morality independently of how nature operates.



That's a good question. Dogs seem to do well being part of a human pack, and chimps seem to have done well in human care. But who knows . . .

On a slightly different note, there was a scientist who raised his own child right along side a baby chimp. Him and his wife treated both babies exactly the same in every way. During the experiment the chimp baby hit a cognitive wall and didn't develop any further. More interestingly, the scientists stopped the experiment somewhat abruptly. Some think it was due to the fact that their human baby was starting to mimic chimp sounds and they were worried that their human child would not develop properly.

This Guy Simultaneously Raised a Chimp and a Baby in Exactly the Same Way To See What Would Happen | Smart News | Smithsonian

Oh yes, I seem to remember seeing something about that as well, the child and the chimp I mean. Which brings me to something else. I've heard that it's not the size of brain ratio to size of creature that determines intelligence so much (however intelligence might be defined,,,apparently there are different types, apart from IQ which is a minefield in itself, but spatial, manual, I think, can't remember them all), but rather how many 'wrinkles' or folds in the brain.
What is also fascinating is that sometimes where a part of the brain is damaged, neural paths can relink elsewhere or something, so that the person can still function. Not only that, but some people see words as colours and various things like that.

We also see or recognise colours differently as well. There's a group of people somewhere who will differentiate between different shades of the same colour, that people in say our environment, can't see. Well, we might be able to see brown, but not such subtle variations as they can. But these other people couldn't 'see', say red. They live in an area where there is a lot of brown and maybe green and I assume blue, like the sky.
So perhaps if they came to live in a country with traffic lights and such, it would be difficult for them to function as well as us...and maybe vice versa. I'm not sure that it's they or us are colour blind as such, but perhaps with training or practice we and they could get to see these colours. I have a friend who used to be a printer and he's extremely good at colour differentiation as he had to match mixes and things.
If one takes what would be called turquoise, I've noticed people tend to see that differently. My husband might see it as more blue, but I might see it as more green. Can't remember whether my friend sees it the way I do or the way my husband does. But it's interesting that our eyes pick up one colour or the other more predominantly.
 
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Loudmouth

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Oh yes, I seem to remember seeing something about that as well, the child and the chimp I mean. Which brings me to something else. I've heard that it's not the size of brain ratio to size of creature that determines intelligence so much (however intelligence might be defined,,,apparently there are different types, apart from IQ which is a minefield in itself, but spatial, manual, I think, can't remember them all), but rather how many 'wrinkles' or folds in the brain.

The folds in the brain create more area towards the surface of the brain which is where all of the "important" neurons are. So an increase in overall size and increases in folding both contribute to an increase in overall numbers of neurons.

What is also fascinating is that sometimes where a part of the brain is damaged, neural paths can relink elsewhere or something, so that the person can still function. Not only that, but some people see words as colours and various things like that.

We also see or recognise colours differently as well. There's a group of people somewhere who will differentiate between different shades of the same colour, that people in say our environment, can't see. Well, we might be able to see brown, but not such subtle variations as they can. But these other people couldn't 'see', say red. They live in an area where there is a lot of brown and maybe green and I assume blue, like the sky.
So perhaps if they came to live in a country with traffic lights and such, it would be difficult for them to function as well as us...and maybe vice versa. I'm not sure that it's they or us are colour blind as such, but perhaps with training or practice we and they could get to see these colours. I have a friend who used to be a printer and he's extremely good at colour differentiation as he had to match mixes and things.
If one takes what would be called turquoise, I've noticed people tend to see that differently. My husband might see it as more blue, but I might see it as more green. Can't remember whether my friend sees it the way I do or the way my husband does. But it's interesting that our eyes pick up one colour or the other more predominantly.

I do agree that brain plasticity and neurobiology are very fascinating, but we are probably straying from the topic a bit.
 
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tansy

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The folds in the brain create more area towards the surface of the brain which is where all of the "important" neurons are. So an increase in overall size and increases in folding both contribute to an increase in overall numbers of neurons.



I do agree that brain plasticity and neurobiology are very fascinating, but we are probably straying from the topic a bit.

Yes, sorry about that :(. But thanks for info :)
 
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pat34lee

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You know the 2LOT has zero to do with ToE, right? Right?!

Based on your ignorant comment/question, I'll assume you've never read or studied the laws of thermodynamics, let alone the second one. So here, save yourself some future embarrassment and take a moment to read this:

Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

Not only do you need some better information, you need some manners and more than a little TACT.
 
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Shemjaza

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Being a Neanderthal trait, I wonder what the Nazi's would have made of that if they had known.
I thought the Neanderthal redhead trait was a different mutation to the sapiens one?

Some racists have taken to the "Europeans have some Neanderthal DNA" factoid as a justification for their superiority. They seem to ignore that Asians, middle Easterners and people from the northern parts of Africa also have it. :)
 
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Not only do you need some better information, you need some manners and more than a little TACT.

How about instead of just attacking, you actually respond substantively to what was written. Do you, or do you not know that 2LoT has nothing to do with evolution? And have you ever studied physics and specifically the laws of thermodynamics.
 
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pat34lee

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How about instead of just attacking, you actually respond substantively to what was written. Do you, or do you not know that 2LoT has nothing to do with evolution? And have you ever studied physics and specifically the laws of thermodynamics.

Go back to page 1 of this thread and read the three or four posts he made there. I was responding to his style, not his substance, which was severely lacking as well.
 
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Shemjaza

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Not only do you need some better information, you need some manners and more than a little TACT.
The 2LoT is about the tendency for closed systems to find a thermodynamic equilibrium, not about some kind of supernatural descent from order to chaos.

Increasingly complex chemical structures could could in fact be thermodynamically lower. In any case none of: individual life forms, populations of life forms or even the entire planet are closed systems.
 
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Shemjaza

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Go back to page 1 of this thread and read the three or four posts he made there. I was responding to his style, not his substance, which was severely lacking as well.
Then please be the bigger person and respond to the content.

Information in context of ID is undefined or unmeasurable and the 2LoT isn't relevant to evolution.
 
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HitchSlap

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Not only do you need some better information, you need some manners and more than a little TACT.
images
 
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pat34lee

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The 2LoT is about the tendency for closed systems to find a thermodynamic equilibrium, not about some kind of supernatural descent from order to chaos.

Increasingly complex chemical structures could could in fact be thermodynamically lower. In any case none of: individual life forms, populations of life forms or even the entire planet are closed systems.

The problems with TOE and thermodynamics don't begin with life or evolution, but long before that, if you believe in the big bang and all the rest of the naturalistic explanation for the universe.
 
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Shemjaza

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The problems with TOE and thermodynamics don't begin with life or evolution, but long before that, if you believe in the big bang and all the rest of the naturalistic explanation for the universe.
I think you have a mistaken idea as to what the TOE is. It's just about how extant life changes, it isn't about how life began or how the universe formed.

Even the big bang is just a description of the very early expansion of the universe, not the ultimate cause.

We don't know how or why the universe happened, that doesn't make any just so story more accurate.
 
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pat34lee

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I think you have a mistaken idea as to what the TOE is. It's just about how extant life changes, it isn't about how life began or how the universe formed.

Even the big bang is just a description of the very early expansion of the universe, not the ultimate cause.

We don't know how or why the universe happened, that doesn't make any just so story more accurate.

We also have no idea how evolution works for that matter. Nothing that has been tried in lab experiments works, and they've been at it over 100 years.

Anyhow, it all ties together. That is how the universe went from hundreds of millions of years old to billions of years, when they found that evolution within the old time frame was impossible. The problem it's impossible within any time frame, and more time just makes things worse.
 
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