Evolution doesn't matter anymore.

[Aussie Pete]

It's unclear exactly when language developed among hominids, but today only one ape species has spoken language--homo sapiens.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, you may consider yourself an ape. I'm not an ape. There are differences that make people unique amongst God's creation. Spoken language is just one.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Well, you may consider yourself an ape. I'm not an ape. There are differences that make people unique amongst God's creation. Spoken language is just one.

You are not paying attention. It doesn't matter even if we are evolved. The soul of man didn't enter this fallen reality until original sin.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Decoherent Time in a larger Coherent Time System is disorder ..entropy.
Satan started disorder in God's Kingdom. Disorder in a Coherent system is Decoherence. This fallen reality has entropy.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Original Sin caused the first wave collapse that included souls.
Was the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, the same knowledge we gain by observing a particle with wave collapse?

 

[The Barbarian]

How does "virtual history" differ from the real thing? How do we tell the difference?

And if God could fake ages of history seamlessly, why not just fake all of it?

This seems like a complicated way to avoid reality.

 

[loveofourlord]

This would make god a liar, god probably couldn't make adam be more then look like he was older, but there be no reason to create the entire universe looking like it's billions of years old, putting fossils in the ground making it look billions of years, put oil limestone and such that take millions of years to form. there are things in the universe and earth that would have to be lies to be there.

 

[loveofourlord]

Abysmally opposed to the blind faith bullies of macro-evolution actually.

Given the track record of those that hate evolution to make it up or lie about it, or not even understand grade school level knowledge, why should we take them seriously? They don't have to accept evolution, but when their arguments make anyone that knows a modicum about evolution laugh why should we care?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, you may consider yourself an ape. I'm not an ape.

Your genes say otherwise.

There are differences that make people unique amongst God's creation. Spoken language is just one.

What makes humanity unique is that we were made in the image and likeness of God. Human beings bear the Divine Image. We can talk about what all that means all day, and it would be a very fine theological conversation to have.

But it's not true that spoken language is a determining factor here. There is much evidence of, at the very least, rudimentary language among a number of other species. Not merely communication, but language. Such as exhibited by some corvid and cetacean species.

What makes man special, in relationship to all other animals, is that man uniquely has a moral agency, and responsibility, to care for and love this world as the image-bearers of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Barbarian]

This would make god a liar, god probably couldn't make adam be more then look like he was older, but there be no reason to create the entire universe looking like it's billions of years old, putting fossils in the ground making it look billions of years, put oil limestone and such that take millions of years to form. there are things in the universe and earth that would have to be lies to be there.

Yes. That's the most powerful objection. God is truth. So it's really hard to see how He could be deceptive.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Your genes say otherwise.

Humans share 90% of their genes with Abyssinian cats. Also, 85% with mice, 80% with cows and 60% with a banana. My genes say that I'm bananas and that I love cats. Now I'm not sure if I should eat beef. Would that be a kind of cannibalism? Does the same apply to bananas? Or is it only 60% cannibalism, so I'm excused? I'm not about to eat a mouse, so that's irrelevant.

 

[loveofourlord]

yeah, a lot of the genes we have are what control cells and what not, of course we would expect there to be similarities, funny of course that the amount of differences tend to line up with how distant we are from them evolutionary. And before you say, "Same design, same designer." you also have to explain the similarities that are not required, like having genes for things animals don't use and don't make much sense without being related.

 

[The Barbarian]

yeah, a lot of the genes we have are what control cells and what not, of course we would expect there to be similarities, funny of course that the amount of differences tend to line up with how distant we are from them evolutionary. And before you say, "Same design, same designer." you also have to explain the similarities that are not required, like having genes for things animals don't use and don't make much sense without being related.

Yep. It's a little hard to figure out why a "designer" would fit us out with a gene for making vitamin C, but made it broken so it doesn't work.

But if a Creator made us to evolve into a species that normally gets all the vitamin C we need from our food, that makes perfect sense.

We aren't the products of some little "designer"; we are the creatures of the all-powerful God.

 

[loveofourlord]

Yep. It's a little hard to figure out why a "designer" would fit us out with a gene for making vitamin C, but made it broken so it doesn't work.

But if a Creator made us to evolve into a species that normally gets all the vitamin C we need from our food, that makes perfect sense.

We aren't the products of some little "designer"; we are the creatures of the all-powerful God.

well I've heard the vitamin c argued to be from the fall, but better example are things like the protein found in apes that makes their jaw strength more then ours, but it also determines how strongly the muscle tightens the skull, allowing for less brain capacity, and speech is harder. Or dolphins that don't use air scent having a huge portion of their genome devoted to it.

I liken it to a ford car being built with all the parts from a ford truck, just the parts not used are welded to the undercarriage and such.

 

[The Barbarian]

well I've heard the vitamin c argued to be from the fall, but better example are things like the protein found in apes that makes their jaw strength more then ours, but it also determines how strongly the muscle tightens the skull, allowing for less brain capacity, and speech is harder. Or dolphins that don't use air scent having a huge portion of their genome devoted to it.

I liken it to a ford car being built with all the parts from a ford truck, just the parts not used are welded to the undercarriage and such.

Yes, stuff like that. The myostatin gene keeps us remarkably weak for a primate. Chimps, while much smaller than humans, are about twice as strong as most humans. There are examples of mutations of this gene in humans; such people are much stronger than normal. And there's a least one human who is the child of two olympic athletes, both with the mutation. Last I read, he was an incredibly strong baby. At that time, there seemed to be no adverse consequences.

I tend to think the "weaker muscles/larger cranium" hypothesis is wrong; as D'Arcy Thompson noted over a century ago, allometric growth leading to relatively smaller face and jaws, and relatively larger crania seems to adequately explain our differences with other apes WRT the skull. Possibly a single gene could mediate such a change:

Your "unused parts" notion would apply to things like wisdom teeth (now apparently becoming less common in humans) and the vestigial appendix. The appendix is vestigial because it no longer serves as a digestive organ, but does have a function as a refuge for symbiotic bacteria, and manufacture of some leukocytes.

 

[loveofourlord]

Yes, stuff like that. The myostatin gene keeps us remarkably weak for a primate. Chimps, while much smaller than humans, are about twice as strong as most humans. There are examples of mutations of this gene in humans; such people are much stronger than normal. And there's a least one human who is the child of two olympic athletes, both with the mutation. Last I read, he was an incredibly strong baby. At that time, there seemed to be no adverse consequences.

I tend to think the "weaker muscles/larger cranium" hypothesis is wrong; as D'Arcy Thompson noted over a century ago, allometric growth leading to relatively smaller face and jaws, and relatively larger crania seems to adequately explain our differences with other apes WRT the skull. Possibly a single gene could mediate such a change:

Your "unused parts" notion would apply to things like wisdom teeth (now apparently becoming less common in humans) and the vestigial appendix. The appendix is vestigial because it no longer serves as a digestive organ, but does have a function as a refuge for symbiotic bacteria, and manufacture of some leukocytes.

Yeah I just use it as one example, I do know that there is a few people with that gene activated that have issues with speech from it, least I saw it in a documentary on evolution.

I kinda like the gene examples as it's not just something that they can argue has another use. Genes that are deactivated have zero use for any form Like the gene I mentioned if it is the cause of the large brain, *just saying IF it is* are creationists going to argue that we were dumber in the past? Or what about the dolphins, it's easy to explain them having scent genes as they have ancestors on earth, what is the reason for them being there if they never lived on land heh.

 

[The Barbarian]

I kinda like the gene examples as it's not just something that they can argue has another use. Genes that are deactivated have zero use for any form Like the gene I mentioned if it is the cause of the large brain, *just saying IF it is* are creationists going to argue that we were dumber in the past? Or what about the dolphins, it's easy to explain them having scent genes as they have ancestors on earth, what is the reason for them being there if they never lived on land heh.

Yes. Some damaged genes might have evolved functions other than protein synthesis, just as non-coding DNA sometimes mutates to form a useful new gene. And yes, olfactory genes for dolphins as well as genes for hind legs remind us that they evolved from land animals. Sometimes rear limb genes actually get expressed:

 

[loveofourlord]

Yes. Some damaged genes might have evolved functions other than protein synthesis, just as non-coding DNA sometimes mutates to form a useful new gene. And yes, olfactory genes for dolphins as well as genes for hind legs remind us that they evolved from land animals. Sometimes rear limb genes actually get expressed:

well not sure about dolphins, but whales they will argue it's for mating heh.

 

[The Barbarian]

well not sure about dolphins, but whales they will argue it's for mating heh.

It is true that very few dolphins have trouble mating, even without rear limbs. Dolphins generally, are enthusiastic and frequent copulators.

And modern whales do quite well without rear legs. One transitional whale, Basilosaurus, did have vestigial legs repurposed for mating. Some whales have vestigial legs that are now entirely enclosed in the body, which seem to have no function at all. As you probably know, "vestigial" does not mean "useless"; many times (as Darwin pointed out) vestigial organs can evolve a different purpose, even if some do not.

 

[loveofourlord]

It is true that very few dolphins have trouble mating, even without rear limbs. Dolphins generally, are enthusiastic and frequent copulators.

And modern whales do quite well without rear legs. One transitional whale, Basilosaurus, did have vestigial legs repurposed for mating. Some whales have vestigial legs that are now entirely enclosed in the body, which seem to have no function at all. As you probably know, "vestigial" does not mean "useless"; many times (as Darwin pointed out) vestigial organs can evolve a different purpose, even if some do not.

Oh yeah, :> why I like completely uses vs vestigle, less wiggle room.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You are not paying attention. It doesn't matter even if we are evolved. The soul of man didn't enter this fallen reality until original sin.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Adam fell first, then creation followed.

How can a creature evolve to be in the image of God? God simply spoke all creation into existence. Except for man. God personally formed Adam from the dust. God breathed the breath of life into Adam, who became instant man, not a glorified ape. It surely does matter if we evolved or not. Evolution is mindless. Who condemns an ape for going on a rampage? It's just an ape being an ape. Not so with people. Society frowns on that sort of thing. Why? If people have just evolved, then they are a product of mindless evolution. Who can define right and wrong? If it's just evolution, morality makes no sense.