Evolution doesn't matter anymore.

[ViaCrucis]

Do you really believe atheists are forcing their views on us? I've never had that experience.

It's part of The Narrative™. The lie Fundamentalism has been telling itself for over a century now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[loveofourlord]

It's part of The Narrative™. The lie Fundamentalism has been telling itself for over a century now.

-CryptoLutheran

It goes back to my favorite saying, "Reality has a well known liberal bias." always funny when people complain about a bias in things that are demonstrably true.

 

[The Barbarian]

It goes back to my favorite saying, "Reality has a well known liberal bias." always funny when people complain about a bias in things that are demonstrably true.

I've had discussions with QAnon/Trumper/fundamentalists who have accused me of being "rational-based." I could only plead guilty.

"Oh, you rationalists have a huge blind spot."

 

[stevevw]

Is there something preventing God from generating a physical history after Adam and Eve's original sin ..all the way back to the Big Bang?

Edit: It has come to my attention that people only read the first post so here is something important:

Adam did not have a physical history of this fallen place until after he sinned. That physical history is in the past. That physical history didn't have to actually happen.

There can be a Big Bang and Evolution ..in a past history that didn't actually happen. This answers how Earth was started 7,000 years ago.

The Earth wasn't fallen to humans until original sin. That means it didn't have physical history until that point. Then it had a history ..one that didn't actually happen.

Satan was a high ranking Angel. He became prideful and thought he could be greater than God. He caused the disorder that started decoherence. This place is run by him because he started this mess.

Original sin was the start of what we consider normal time.

If you want Man created without evolution ..this is how it is done.

You need physical history to be able to claim objects and actions as your own ..to be able to sin.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Waves do not have a history until they are collapsed. Original Sin is the first collapse.

Radioactive particles used in the double slit will not decay in flight. There won't be multiple registers on the final panel. That means matter waves do not age. Physical history is for Decoherent Locality ..wave collapse ..this fallen condition. History was assigned to Adam and Eve that didn't actually happen to them.

To be one with God we need to be matter waves.
Jesus was "made to be sin" to die for our sins. This place IS sin.

This fallen place allows sin. You need wave collapse and history to do that.

Do you want the history of Adam being in the Garden injected into Wave collapse? Well, that's not how it works. We get evolution instead.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Original Sin caused us to join the present state ..the now. Fallen angels were already here. Satan started it with disorder. But I don't think there was a physical history until humans joined. Time here is a slideshow of present states. An infinite sum of waves collapsing each frame.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Is there gravity in Heaven? Is this why Jesus ascended into Heaven?
If there isn't wave collapse, is there hot and cold?

A constant state of decoherence causes age.

Gravity is from the amount of atoms that need to remain wave collapsed per volume.

Time and Gravity are linked because they both are fundamental to this fallen condition.

This is a very interesting concept. Do you have any links to articles on this? As the bible says the realm for which God exists is beyond our understanding of physical reality. So before the fall when God created the heavens and the earth this also existed as part of Gods heavenly realm. In fact the Garden of Eden was known as paradise and Paradise is often referred to as a heavenly place.

So there must have been different physical realities before and after the fall. The Bible mentions that Heaven (paradise) had no death and we would have no physical bodies but eternal ones. So it seems time and space are done away with. Wikipedia mentions something interesting about how this heavenly realm (Gods Kingdom) will be restored referring to revelations 21:1 where it says there will be a new heaven and earth which will also do away with our physical realm as we know it including time.

The twenty-first chapter of the Book of Revelation introduces the final state of perfection where, according to one commentator, "cosmic time has been turned into eternity.
New Earth (Christianity)).

So it makes sense to me that the quantum level may be a glimpse or point at which how our material world breaks down into Gods heavenly realm but also is the point at which Gods heavenly realm collapses into our physical reality with its time, space and entropy. I think the primary cause of this breakdown is us. The Bible also says that heaven is within us. So it is our interacting with our world or reality that causes the breakdown or the restoration of the heavenly realm. This would mean that we are connected in some way at the quantum level to our surroundings and our actions can affect reality.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is a very interesting concept. Do you have any links to articles on this?

Gerald Aardsma's "virtual history." Yes, it's an intriguing concept, but it can easily collapse into "last Thursdayism."
Scrivenings: Evolution Is Not a Theory in Crisis according to prominent creationists
and
Philosophical, Theological and Scientific Comparisons of Biblical Creation Alternatives

Last Thursdayism:
Last Thursdayism - Wiktionary

 

[chad kincham]

If you mean "a raft of responses demonstrating that the Setterfield/Norman paper is a classic example of crackpot so-called scence", then yeah.

That C should slow as entropy increases is just common sense.

 

[stevevw]

Gerald Aardsma's "virtual history." Yes, it's an intriguing concept, but it can easily collapse into "last Thursdayism."
Scrivenings: Evolution Is Not a Theory in Crisis according to prominent creationists
and
Philosophical, Theological and Scientific Comparisons of Biblical Creation Alternatives

Last Thursdayism:
Last Thursdayism - Wiktionary

Thank you, sorry for the delay in getting back. I will check this out.

 

[chilehed]

That C should slow as entropy increases is just common sense.

Only if you don't know much about physics.

 

[The Barbarian]

I'm still wondering how anyone could adopt that thinking, and still be consistent with the Christian belief that God is not deceptive.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm still wondering how anyone could adopt that thinking, and still be consistent with the Christian belief that God is not deceptive.

This is in response to what?

 

[The Barbarian]

This is in response to what?

The "virtual history" doctrine, or variations thereof.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The "virtual history" doctrine, or variations thereof.

I assume by that you are referring to the notion that God could make things appear to be actually old?

(The Barbarian said: ↑
I'm still wondering how anyone could adopt that thinking, and still be consistent with the Christian belief that God is not deceptive.)

Putting aside the notion that God is not allowed to deceive those who deceive themselves, does not the inventor of time have the ability to manipulate it? Also, could there not be two (and more) points of view from which to count time?

My current thinking on the matter is like my thinking concerning the nature of reality --when we die and see God as he is, our understanding updated, we will all see we didn't know what we were talking about.

 

[The Barbarian]

I assume by that you are referring to the notion that God could make things appear to be actually old?

Not merely that. "Virtual history" is a lot more complicated, but necessary to account for all the evidence. Dr. Aardsma explains the idea:

Actually, I think there is enormous evidence of biological evolution (meaning extensive changes to flaura and fauna)---again, in virtual history. Note that the Bible does not say that biological evolution CAN NOT happen; it says that biological evolution DID NOT happen. That is, the Bible clearly teaches that we got here by CREATION, not by EVOLUTION. "In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and the earth", not "In the beginning God EVOLVED the heavens and the earth." But none of this excludes the possibility of biological evolution in virtual history. In fact, the teaching in Romans 8:20, that the creation was subjected to futility at the time of the Fall, meshes rather well with evolution being the thing seen in the virtual history data, for the hallmark of evolution is not purpose, but random chance and meaninglessness.

The Grand Canyon should also be understood just as the standard scientists describe its formation. It too is a virtual history phenomenon.

Virtual history is not a hard idea. Just think about what it means to actually CREATE something. Creating a story is a helpful analogy. Take "The Hobbit" as an example of a created entity. Now step into the book with Bilbo on page one and begin to examine the world around you. Everything you see and examine around you has already, on page one, an extensive built-in virtual history. Bilbo is in his 50's as I recall. So he has a virtual history. His house has been dug back into the hill, implying someone did some digging. If you examine the tunnels you can no doubt find tool marks left by the workmen. His front door is made of wood, implying trees grown, sawn into planks, planed, and fastened together by craftsmen, all before the story begins. And on and on it goes...Bilbo's clothing with all those stitches, and the soil in his yard and garden with humus from long-dead leaves, ...

We are living in a CREATION. The creation we are living in is a story of God's making. It opens on page one 5176+/-26 B.C. (by my best reckoning so far). The story moves from Creation to Fall to Flood to Exodus to Birth of Christ to Crucifixion to Redemption to ultimate Restoration of all things. This story is our reality, but it is not ultimate reality. (God is ultimate reality---He transcends the story just as any author transcends their created story.) And like any story, it has, necessarily, a virtual history built in from page one onward.

The big take-home point is that evidence of virtual history---of even millions or billions of years of this or that process operating in the past---does not and cannot falsify the fact of creation in a created entity. So we can let the virtual history data about the Grand Canyon or the ice ages or whatever else speak for itself and say whatever it seems to say. We do not have to resort to foolishness (e.g., denying the validity of tree-ring calibrated radiocarbon dates) to try to wipe out every trace of any natural process prior to the biblical date of Creation. We understand virtual history to be part and parcel of any created thing, so evidences of such processes do not threaten our faith or falsify the Bible's claim that we got here by supernatural creation just over 7000 years ago.

Sincerely,
Dr. Aardsma
BC Correspondence: Virtual History

 

[The Barbarian]

Putting aside the notion that God is not allowed to deceive those who deceive themselves,

God is truth. If you believe that God would plant fake evidence, then that's not the God of the Bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is truth. If you believe that God would plant fake evidence, then that's not the God of the Bible.

I don't, but I do believe God not only lets others plant (or interpret) fake evidence falsely, but that he even promotes deceptions at times, to those who have already gone that route: Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

As for the notion that God has done this, I disagree. Not that he can't or hasn't the right, but that he need not, and still have done it in 6 days. There's still too much to me that needs answered by more than being shouted down.

 

[renniks]

Evolution of Homo Sapiens is only generated history. It ensures the morality test we are in is intact. Original sin caused retrocausality of physical history.

I have no idea what you are saying. Perhaps you could say it in plain speak? Maybe I'm just tired, but it's not making any sense.

 

[coffee4u]

I have no idea what you are saying. Perhaps you could say it in plain speak? Maybe I'm just tired, but it's not making any sense.

Nah, it's another one who makes no sense at all. Some people can't call a spade a spade.

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't, but I do believe God not only lets others plant (or interpret) fake evidence falsely, but that he even promotes deceptions at times, to those who have already gone that route: Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

The Gospels reject that thinking.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.

As for the notion that God has done this, I disagree. Not that he can't or hasn't the right, but that he need not, and still have done it in 6 days. There's still too much to me that needs answered by more than being shouted down.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Gospels reject that thinking.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.

How do the Gospels, or the verse you quoted, reject that thinking? What, by the way, do you do with Isaiah 6:10?

2 Peter 3:9 demonstrates only that God has a reason for what he is doing/ not doing. It says nothing about what his intentions are concerning the thinking of those who imagine he is delaying.

 

[The Barbarian]

How do the Gospels, or the verse you quoted, reject that thinking?

God is not willing to lose even one person to Hell, and yet you think He would delude people into losing their salvation?