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Evolution doesn't matter anymore.

Neogaia777

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pittsburghjoe

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Nope.

Original sin brought sin and death into the good universe of God, and we now currently labor under it on account of our received concupiscence. But it did not change the fact that this universe is God's good creation. The flesh that hangs off your bones is good, God made it, and He called it good.



Pure speculation, at best. You have nothing to base this on.



Heresy.



Heresy.



Meaningless word salad.

-CryptoLutheran

Says the guy that we don't have a soul.

Satan started disorder in God's Kingdom ..that's what this fallen reality is.
Physical history is different than being physical.
 
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Aussie Pete

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They can do that already if you understand sign language

Is your mind changed?
My cat understands me at some level. I don't see that as a sign that she evolved. How many apes have learned a spoken language?
 
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Job 33:6

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My cat understands me at some level. I don't see that as a sign that she evolved. How many apes have learned a spoken language?

Great ape language - Wikipedia

There have been a good number, over a dozen or so, that people have retained for language studies. Great apes have demonstrated the ability to understand language to the extent that they can speak it back with use of sign language.

Example:
Washoe (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia

Washoe learned approximately 350 signs of ASL,[2] also teaching her adopted son Loulis (also a chimpanzee) some signs.[3][4][5] She spent most of her life at Central Washington University.

Washoe learned approximately 350 words of sign languages.[2]

For researchers to consider that Washoe had learned a sign, she had to use it spontaneously and appropriately for 14 consecutive days.[18][19]

These signs were then further tested using a double-blind vocabulary test. This test demonstrated 1) "that the chimpanzee subjects could communicate information under conditions in which the only source of information available to a human observer was the signing of the chimpanzee;" 2) "that independent observers agreed with each other;" and 3) "that the chimpanzees used the signs to refer to natural language categories—that the sign DOG could refer to any dog, FLOWER to any flower, SHOE to any shoe."[20][21]

Washoe and her mates were able to combine the hundreds of signs that they learned into novel combinations (that they had never been taught, but rather created themselves) with different meanings. For instance, when Washoe's mate Moja didn't know the word for "thermos", Moja referred to it as a "METAL CUP DRINK"; however, whether or not Washoe's combinations constitute genuine inventive language is controversial, as Herbert S. Terrace contended by concluding that seeming sign combinations did not stand for a single item, but rather were three individual signs.[22][23] Taking the thermos example, rather than METAL CUP DRINK being a composite meaning thermos, it could be that Washoe was indicating there was an item of metal (METAL), one shaped like a cup (CUP), and that could be drunk out of (DRINK).
 
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pittsburghjoe

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Is there gravity in Heaven? Is this why Jesus ascended into Heaven?
If there isn't wave collapse, is there hot and cold?

A constant state of decoherence causes age.

Gravity is from the amount of atoms that need to remain wave collapsed per volume.

Time and Gravity are linked because they both are fundamental to this fallen condition.
 
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pittsburghjoe

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You guys refuse to consider what it means to be able to sin. How can Heaven be exactly the same as here if sin will not be possible there?

Satan was the first to sin. He caused disorder in God's Kingdom. God's Kingdom is orderly ..that means it is coherent. Disorder in Coherence is DECOHERENCE. Satan is the ruler and has authority because he started this place. Corruption and Fallen = Satan. You can't have decoherence without coherence being here first. Satan doesn't create anything. Disorder of coherence can cause physical uniqueness and physical history.

Disorder in coherence causes things to be finite. Finite objects can be about themselves. They can sin.
Everything about this place is about sin. Gravity, Age, Physicality (uniqueness/history), Entropy, Decay, and Death.
Does anyone think we will be able to "pleasure" ourselves in Heaven? You need a physical body for that.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Great ape language - Wikipedia

There have been a good number, over a dozen or so, that people have retained for language studies. Great apes have demonstrated the ability to understand language to the extent that they can speak it back with use of sign language.

Example:
Washoe (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia

Washoe learned approximately 350 signs of ASL,[2] also teaching her adopted son Loulis (also a chimpanzee) some signs.[3][4][5] She spent most of her life at Central Washington University.

Washoe learned approximately 350 words of sign languages.[2]

For researchers to consider that Washoe had learned a sign, she had to use it spontaneously and appropriately for 14 consecutive days.[18][19]

These signs were then further tested using a double-blind vocabulary test. This test demonstrated 1) "that the chimpanzee subjects could communicate information under conditions in which the only source of information available to a human observer was the signing of the chimpanzee;" 2) "that independent observers agreed with each other;" and 3) "that the chimpanzees used the signs to refer to natural language categories—that the sign DOG could refer to any dog, FLOWER to any flower, SHOE to any shoe."[20][21]

Washoe and her mates were able to combine the hundreds of signs that they learned into novel combinations (that they had never been taught, but rather created themselves) with different meanings. For instance, when Washoe's mate Moja didn't know the word for "thermos", Moja referred to it as a "METAL CUP DRINK"; however, whether or not Washoe's combinations constitute genuine inventive language is controversial, as Herbert S. Terrace contended by concluding that seeming sign combinations did not stand for a single item, but rather were three individual signs.[22][23] Taking the thermos example, rather than METAL CUP DRINK being a composite meaning thermos, it could be that Washoe was indicating there was an item of metal (METAL), one shaped like a cup (CUP), and that could be drunk out of (DRINK).
Still not spoken language. My old cat could open a door if it is a lever style handle. She just watched me and realised what the handle did. and I read nothing more into it than God has created wonderful animals that display His power and glory.
 
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Job 33:6

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Still not spoken language. My old cat could open a door if it is a lever style handle. She just watched me and realised what the handle did. and I read nothing more into it than God has created wonderful animals that display His power and glory.

Apes cannot vocally speak English, if that's what you're asking for. Their jaws and mouths are not shaped or articulated for sound. But they can use sign language, which demonstrates an ability to communicate written language none the less.

Whether they speak it, or sign it, both methods demonstrate an understanding of language.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Apes cannot vocally speak English, if that's what you're asking for. Their jaws and mouths are not shaped or articulated for sound. But they can use sign language, which demonstrates an ability to communicate written language none the less.

Whether they speak it, or sign it, both methods demonstrate an understanding of language.
I finally remembered the context of this discussion. It was about the origin of spoken language. I've had an "interesting" two weeks.

Speech is one of the arguments raised against evolution. It is not inbuilt. It has to be taught. Apes can learn sign language. If the ape dies, then whatever it has learned dies with it. Children have the ability to learn spoken language, but it is not built in. There is no satisfactory answer as to how man got from grunts to......... 'According to lexicographer and dictionary expert Susie Dent, “the average active vocabulary of an adult English speaker is around 20,000 words, while his passive vocabulary is around 40,000 words.”'

Now if man was created by God, then God could have taught him to speak. Then man would teach his offspring to speak and so, eventually, we get to a 20,000 word vocabulary. Seems much more plausible to me than cavemen turning into orators.
 
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pittsburghjoe

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Such an idea does not exist, therefore it cannot be discarded.
Is Dark Matter, De Broglie matter-waves? Does it have an inability to collapse into physical particles? Does it remain a decohered wave packet like a photon? Would galaxies hold together without Dark Matter Waves? Is it hinting there is a Creator?

Non-local waves do not bend Spacetime ..but local decoherent ones do. Spacetime will bend in relation to the amount of collapsed waves it contains ..usually, atoms with mass. Measurable atoms are physical and real to this reality. Dark Matter wave packets can be used for Gravity.

God needed Dark Matter Waves to hold Galaxies together. He needed it so that physical fallen history would lead up to Adam causing Original Sin with the first wave collapse. Is Dark Matter showing us the hand of God because it doesn't collapse into particles? Would this reality exist without Dark Matter Waves?

Time ..History ..can be baked into the first wave collapse ..Original Sin. Evolution is free to have happened as Fallen Physical History ..not what Adam and Eve actually experienced in the Garden of Eden. The evolution excuse to not believe has been destroyed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How many apes have learned a spoken language?

It's unclear exactly when language developed among hominids, but today only one ape species has spoken language--homo sapiens.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Job 33:6

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I finally remembered the context of this discussion. It was about the origin of spoken language. I've had an "interesting" two weeks.

Speech is one of the arguments raised against evolution. It is not inbuilt. It has to be taught. Apes can learn sign language. If the ape dies, then whatever it has learned dies with it. Children have the ability to learn spoken language, but it is not built in. There is no satisfactory answer as to how man got from grunts to......... 'According to lexicographer and dictionary expert Susie Dent, “the average active vocabulary of an adult English speaker is around 20,000 words, while his passive vocabulary is around 40,000 words.”'

Now if man was created by God, then God could have taught him to speak. Then man would teach his offspring to speak and so, eventually, we get to a 20,000 word vocabulary. Seems much more plausible to me than cavemen turning into orators.

Well actually, the one ape linked above taught another ape how to use sign language. So it's not necessarily true that information is lost when an ape dies.

But regarding mankind's spoken language, I don't see anything unreasonable about the idea that people started out with pictures and drawings, like cave paintings for example, those cave paintings were translated to letters, letters became words, words became of a dictionary, and a dictionary over time is compiled.
 
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Job 33:6

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Of these three writing systems, therefore, only the earliest, the Mesopotamian cuneiform script, invented in Sumer, present-day Iraq, c. 3200 BC, can be traced without any discontinuity over a period of 10,000 years, from a prehistoric antecedent to the present-day alphabet. Its evolution is divided into four phases: (a) clay tokens representing units of goods were used for accounting (8000–3500 BC); (b) the three dimensional tokens were transformed into two-dimensional pictographic signs, and like the former tokens, the pictographic script served exclusively for accounting (3500–3000 BC); (c) phonetic signs, introduced to transcribe the name of individuals, marked the turning point when writing started emulating spoken language and, as a result, became applicable to all fields of human experience (3000–1500 BC); (d) with two dozen letters, each standing for a single sound of voice, the alphabet perfected the rendition of speech. After ideography, logography and syllabaries, the alphabet represents a further segmentation of meaning.

The direct antecedent of the Mesopotamian script was a recording device consisting of clay tokens of multiple shapes (Schmandt-Besserat 1996). The artifacts, mostly of geometric forms such as cones, spheres, disks, cylinders and ovoids, are recovered in archaeological sites dating 8000–3000 BC (Fig. 1). The tokens, used as counters to keep track of goods, were the earliest code—a system of signs for transmitting information. Each token shape was semantic, referring to a particular unit of merchandise. For example, a cone and a sphere stood respectively for a small and a large measure of grain, and ovoids represented jars of oil. The repertory of some three hundred types of counters made it feasible to manipulate and store information on multiple categories of goods (Schmandt-Besserat 1992).

After four millennia, the token system led to writing. The transition from counters to script took place simultaneously in Sumer and Elam, present-day western Iran when, around 3500 BC, Elam was under Sumerian domination. It occurred when tokens, probably representing a debt, were stored in envelopes until payment. These envelopes made of clay in the shape of a hollow ball had the disadvantage of hiding the tokens held inside. Some accountants, therefore, impressed the tokens on the surface of the envelope before enclosing them inside, so that the shape and number of counters held inside could be verified at all times (Fig. 1). These markings were the first signs of writing. The metamorphosis from three-dimensional artifacts to two-dimensional markings did not affect the semantic principle of the system. The significance of the markings on the outside of the envelopes was identical to that of the tokens held inside.

About 3200 BC, once the system of impressed signs was understood, clay tablets—solid cushion-shaped clay artifacts bearing the impressions of tokens—replaced the envelopes filled with tokens. The impression of a cone and a sphere token, representing measures of grain, resulted respectively in a wedge and a circular marking which bore the same meaning as the tokens they signified (Fig. 2). They were ideograms—signs representing one concept. The impressed tablets continued to be used exclusively to record quantities of goods received or disbursed. They still expressed plurality in one-to-one correspondence.

Etc etc

The Evolution of Writing | Denise Schmandt-Besserat

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe this is God's work, but an instant "kapow moment" in which God just implanted a dictionary into mankind's brain, just seems unreasonable.
 
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The Barbarian

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The idea of a "virtual history", touted by creationist Gerald Aardsma, removes a lot of logical and evidential problems for creationism.

The difficulty comes in determining where the "virtual history" of fossils, astronomical evidence, etc. ends and the "real history" begins. It kind of blends into "Last Thursdayism."
 
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