Evolution and you?

Fierce Badger

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And this is a shining example of how not to present a YEC argument to someone who disagrees with you.

Personally, I lean towards theistic evolution, though I'm not 100% sure. However, within the Church I see it as theologoumena. If TE's are wrong, they're not heretics since many of them have a sincere love for God and His truth, the same goes for YECs and all the other positions that can be taken on the subject.

ETA: I do agree that evolutionary theory should NOT be applied to philosophy. The results shown in history are horrendous.
 
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Correct. Good post, FB. I would also add that having Jesus's face on Rambo for an avatar...also not the best move! LOL

And this is a shining example of how not to present a YEC argument to someone who disagrees with you.

Personally, I lean towards theistic evolution, though I'm not 100% sure. However, within the Church I see it as theologoumena. If TE's are wrong, they're not heretics since many of them have a sincere love for God and His truth, the same goes for YECs and all the other positions that can be taken on the subject.

ETA: I do agree that evolutionary theory should NOT be applied to philosophy. The results shown in history are horrendous.
 
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BobRyan

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As a Calvinist would you say that such a thing is pre-ordained? Or that we have the duty as Christians to oppose it and we need to each one choose to do so??
 
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rusmeister

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I notice that thread title is not "evolution vs the Bible" as Darwin would have put it.

I think a lot of us know less about Darwin than we think we do.

I found Fr Tom Hopko's series on him and evolution to be both enlightening and fascinating.
 
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Protoevangel

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And this is a shining example of how not to present a YEC argument to someone who disagrees with you.

As a Calvinist would you say that such a thing is pre-ordained? Or that we have the duty as Christians to oppose it and we need to each one choose to do so??

Please don't feed the troll (anointedgodwarrior).
 
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Crawdad

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yeah, I think the numbers are still stacked heavily in evolution's favor. and they still cannot prove uniformitarianism. even evolutionists say this. that is why it is a theory, and not a law.

and most people test with their conclusions in mind. so no, 150 years of science does not shoot it down. even atheists find holes in evolution.

It leans heavily in evolutions favor because evolution is actual science, creationism is not.

Also, a theory and a law are not mutually exclusive. A law is simply a body of observations but doesnt explain why they happen. Theories are the explanation part of laws. We can observe that things adapt and change the theory of evolution explains, with evidence, why and how that happens.

Most people test with their conclusions in mind? Says who?

Yes, creationism is completely shot down to all those who dont push conspiracy theories.
 
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Protoevangel

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It leans heavily in evolutions favor because evolution is actual science, creationism is not.

Also, a theory and a law are not mutually exclusive. A law is simply a body of observations but doesnt explain why they happen. Theories are the explanation part of laws. We can observe that things adapt and change the theory of evolution explains, with evidence, why and how that happens.

Most people test with their conclusions in mind? Says who?

Yes, creationism is completely shot down to all those who dont push conspiracy theories.
Are you wholly incapable of discussing this without outlandish and insulting claims about those who disagree with you? Are you really that juvenile? Personally, I think you are probably capable of more mature discussion.
 
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Crawdad

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Are you wholly incapable of discussing this without outlandish and insulting claims about those who disagree with you? Are you really that juvenile? Personally, I think you are probably capable of more mature discussion.

Im not insulting anyone.
 
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Protoevangel

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Im not insulting anyone.
Really now?

Yes, creationism is completely shot down to all those who dont push conspiracy theories.
Just grow up. This is childish nonsense.

Do you really consider the (ancient through modern) Holy Saints and Elders of the Church to be conspiracy theorists?
 
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Crawdad

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Really now?


Just grow up. This is childish nonsense.

Do you really consider the (ancient through modern) Holy Saints and Elders of the Church to be conspiracy theorists?

Ok, Im not trying to insult anyone.

If a person is looking at a mound of evidence and claiming that there is a clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something (even though its ok in every mainstream denomination to believe in said theory) then yes, I call that person a conspiracy theorist.

Which isn't an insult. I know a lot of cool conspiracy theorist.
 
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Protoevangel

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Now, I do want to mention that I don't know any Orthodox person who would deny evolution... <<<<

Well, now you know one!
Was that a quote and a reply? Kinda hard to tell.

If so, who were you quoting?
 
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Dorothea

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I believe that the earth is very old and that dinos probably roamed the earth before Adam and Eve and the Garden were created, since animals were created before humans. I liked also my son's thoughts on it. He said after learning about where probably the Garden of Eden was on the earth, and that the dinosaurs were on different continents on earth that it's possible they lived outside the garden in these countries which were nowhere near the Garden, and they died off due to whatever phenomena before the Fall or the the Fall caused their demise. Since there were no human bones found along dinosaur bones, I think this is a reasonable perspective. :)
 
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Protoevangel

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Ok, Im not trying to insult anyone.

If a person is looking at a mound of evidence and claiming that there is a clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something (even though its ok in every mainstream denomination to believe in said theory) then yes, I call that person a conspiracy theorist.

Which isn't an insult. I know a lot of cool conspiracy theorist.
Your accusation is a straw man. That claim about the "clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something" has not been claimed here.

And you still have not answered:
Do you really consider the (ancient through modern) Holy Saints and Elders of the Church to be conspiracy theorists?
 
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Crawdad

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Your accusation is a straw man. That claim about the "clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something" has not been claimed here.

It been stated that lawyers try to keep evidence of creationism down and that scientific tests are conducted whilst trying to bend the conclusions to back preconceived notions. So, yeah.

Do you really consider the (ancient through modern) Holy Saints and Elders of the Church to be conspiracy theorists?

I dont know all of them personally. The ancient ones knew nothing of biology, so I obviously wouldn't consider them. However, if a modern saint of church father has said that the thousands of peer reviewed essays on biological evolution were done dishonestly and unscientifically then yes, I would call them conspiracy theorists. But probably ok guys none the less.
 
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Protoevangel

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It been stated that lawyers try to keep evidence of creationism down and that scientific tests are conducted whilst trying to bend the conclusions to back preconceived notions. So, yeah.
Openly pushing an agenda one genuinely believes in is not the same as "clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something"

clan·des·tine&#8194; &#8194;[klan-des-tin]
adjective
characterized by, done in, or executed with secrecy or concealment, especially for purposes of subversion or deception; private or surreptitious: Their clandestine meetings went undiscovered for two years.

Your subtle deception, attempting to discredit those you disagree with, is noted.

And I don't think anyone was arguing against evolution very much until you started with your anti-Creationist ranting. Well, except for the non-Orthodox trolls. The rest of us were taking pains to be as open to your side as possible. Then you bust in like a bull in a china shop, with a chip on your shoulder, trying to discredit those who differ from your point of view.

Very mature.

I dont know all of them personally. The ancient ones knew nothing of biology, so I obviously wouldn't consider them. However, if a modern saint of church father has said that the thousands of peer reviewed essays on biological evolution were done dishonestly and unscientifically then yes, I would call them conspiracy theorists. But probably ok guys none the less.
Your lack of respect for our Holy Elders is discouraging.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I believe that the earth is very old and that dinos probably roamed the earth before Adam and Eve and the Garden were created, since animals were created before humans. I liked also my son's thoughts on it. He said after learning about where probably the Garden of Eden was on the earth, and that the dinosaurs were on different continents on earth that it's possible they lived outside the garden in these countries which were nowhere near the Garden, and they died off due to whatever phenomena before the Fall or the the Fall caused their demise. Since there were no human bones found along dinosaur bones, I think this is a reasonable perspective. :)
That seems to go along with what Old Earth Creationism advocates when saying that death/dying occurred outside of the Garden of Eden (including the Dinosaurs and their eventual extinction after living centuries before Adam/Eve came into view)...and that Adam/Eve were pushed out into the rest of the world when they sinned, originally being kept from what happened in the rest of nature.

There's a lot of to consider, however, when seeing the accounts of things that are essentially modern-day dinosaur relics...as well as accounts of dinosaurs in remote parts of the world still existing and ancient pictures of men/dinosaurs living together. It's not necessarily the Flintstones reality, but there've been many things that were thought to have died out and revealed to still be living among us. Perhaps its possible that certain creatures lived on and simply went underground.

With the possibility of certain creatures existing, some of it seems similar to when others used to tell stories of "man beasts" in Africa and others scoffed, until they realized what the creatures were/discovered gorillas. The same goes for a host of other creatures within cryptozoology..as it concerns how a cryptid (from the Greek "&#954;&#961;&#973;&#960;&#964;&#969;" (krypto) meaning "hide") is a creature or plant whose existence has been suggested but that is unrecognized by a scientific consensus. Many things that were thought to be scientifically impossible later are deemed to be quite realistic when seeing how they were diagnosed. There was an excellent series on the issue that I'm an avid fan of, known as "Lost Tapes" (here or here to Lost Tapes : Animal Planet ). From the accounts of creatures such as Big Foot, to the Yeti and many others.

In light of the numerous tales around the world of creatures such as Dragons, some say that perhaps those were dinosaurs who still alive. As it concerns their existence today, I would have no reasons to doubt that anymore than it'd be with other creatures that people once thought to not be real.....be it Giant Squids or even things like the ancient fish coelacanth. The coelacanth is an interesting example, seeing that at one point people considered them to be extinct for a LONG time/ancient....and then when one was discovered in the early 1900's, they realized that the fish itself was actually a DEEP-Sea fish. When they realized where its environment was, they began to find more.

amazing_fun_ecology_2003490251532444116_rs_200907232035419295.jpg


Many other creatures may be within this realm...be it with dragons or types of dinosaurs thought to be extinct. On Dinosaurs, although some feel that the creatures went extinct, I'm open to the fact that they could still be alive, with most dying out in the flood and others surviving still. There's still debate on whether the dinosaurs existed in this age or the age before the flood. From what I can see, in my understanding, I think dinosaurs existed in the age prior to the Flood and after...but in the age after the Flood, the environment may've been radically different and too much for the dinosaurs to really handle---thus causing their extinction. For those believing in a Global Flood, be it with large local floods happening worldwide/collectively covering the Globe or with the entire planet being covered in water, there's a view that the Ice Age happened after the Flood and the Dinosaurs passed away. For a good article on such, one can go online and investigate the following:

For those who are of the mindset that Dinosaurs died off long before the Flood ever occurred...and that its not necessary to look for evidence of them in the Bible in order to believe that they existed, they seem to have some valid nuggets of truth as well. For reference:
 
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Crawdad

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Openly pushing an agenda one genuinely believes in is not the same as "clandestine group trying to trick us into believing something"

clan·des·tine&#8194; &#8194;[klan-des-tin]
adjective
characterized by, done in, or executed with secrecy or concealment, especially for purposes of subversion or deception; private or surreptitious: Their clandestine meetings went undiscovered for two years.

Your subtle deception, attempting to discredit those you disagree with, is noted.

And I don't think anyone was arguing against evolution very much until you started with your anti-Creationist ranting. Well, except for the non-Orthodox trolls. The rest of us were taking pains to be as open to your side as possible. Then you bust in like a bull in a china shop, with a chip on your shoulder, trying to discredit those who differ from your point of view.

Very mature.

I came in with an observation. Nothing anti-creationist about it. Then ArmyMatt and I got into a discussion. Clandestine might not have been the correct word to use, but in all reality I was trying to invoke humor to keep the mood as light as possible. However, claiming that all peer reviewers are pushing an agenda does still seem like one believes modern biology is of clandestine origins.


Your lack of respect for our Holy Elders is discouraging.

I find your confusion of disagreement and lack of respect discouraging.
 
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