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Evolution and you?

Dorothea

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I wonder, since so many in here reject evolution, what people's views are on Pangaea. I can guess, but it'd be interesting to read....somehow I don't think Alfred Wegener would be a cult figure adored in here! :p
I don't know who Pangaea is. :blush:

Are you saying most here have rejected evolution all together or just evolution of man? Because I believe some animals have evolved, and I think others here do, too, so there may be a need for more distinction on what you mean - parts of it or all of it or whatever, because it seems people have a variety of beliefs on this. Just my POV.
 
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Protoevangel

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I don't know who Pangaea is. :blush:

Are you saying most here have rejected evolution all together or just evolution of man? Because I believe some animals have evolved, and I think others here do, too, so there may be a need for more distinction on what you mean - parts of it or all of it or whatever, because it seems people have a variety of beliefs on this. Just my POV.
Pangaea is a supercontinent that existed, supposedly from 200-300 million years ago. If you take a map now and compress the land masses, you will notice that they come way to close to fitting together to be just random chance.

Here is what it may have looked like:
fig83.jpg




I wonder, since so many in here reject evolution, what people's views are on Pangaea. I can guess, but it'd be interesting to read....somehow I don't think Alfred Wegener would be a cult figure adored in here! :p
Perhaps the separation happened during the global flood?

Perhaps even during the Creation event itself, when God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters”, the land rose as one mass, and separated out, like a flower blossoming, at that time?

Wegener was a genius.

wegener.gif
 
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Dorothea

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Pangaea is a supercontinent that existed, supposedly from 200-300 million years ago. If you take a map now and compress the land masses, you will notice that they come way to close to fitting together to be just random chance.

Here is what it may have looked like:
fig83.jpg
Thanks, Proto. Science is far from my strongest subject. :blush:
 
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Protoevangel

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Thanks, Proto. Science is far from my strongest subject. :blush:
It's not mine either, but it fascinates me.

My biggest downfall is my lack of discipline. I'll read on Physics, then on geology, and then on Orthodoxy, then on nanotechnology... You get the idea. I might know a little about several subjects, but I can't really call myself an expert on much of anything. If going to college paid better, I'd be a permanent student though, because I loved it!
 
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Dorothea

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It's not mine either, but it fascinates me.

My biggest downfall is my lack of discipline. I'll read on Physics, then on geology, and then on Orthodoxy, then on nanotechnology... You get the idea. I might know a little about several subjects, but I can't really call myself an expert on much of anything. If going to college paid better, I'd be a permanent student though, because I loved it!
Some of science is over my head. I find some of it fascinating as well. I like this subject about the Fall, the dinos, and all. It's neat to me. :)

I also like astronomy and I do like anthropology, and some geology. I took geology at a community college after high school. Didn't do so hot. I got the different types of rocks, but when it got deeper with all the layers of the earth and more technical talk, it didn't stick. ^_^ And talk of anything with atoms or chemistry, or anything that requires high math, I'm toast. :blush:
 
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Thought would be me, Dan. Didn't realize they were that big until well after posted and had errands later. Sorry for annoying thee

By the way, I REALLY wish people would stop posting those huge pictures. It is SO annoying.
 
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Well, the Earth is 5,000 years old, humans lived alongside dinosaurs like on Land of the Lost, fossils are the devil's trickery, radiocarbon dating and the other methodologies are trumped up by atheists, fossil records are illusions, and all the hominids we find are just tricks to throw us off the scent! :p There was no ice age, American Indians arrived in the New World through teleportation, and Elvis is still alive....hiding in Florida. That's my analysis! LOL

Some of science is over my head. I find some of it fascinating as well. I like this subject about the Fall, the dinos, and all. It's neat to me. :)

I also like astronomy and I do like anthropology, and some geology. I took geology at a community college after high school. Didn't do so hot. I got the different types of rocks, but when it got deeper with all the layers of the earth and more technical talk, it didn't stick. ^_^ And talk of anything with atoms or chemistry, or anything that requires high math, I'm toast. :blush:
 
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Dorothea

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Well, the Earth is 5,000 years old, humans lived alongside dinosaurs like on Land of the Lost, fossils are the devil's trickery, radiocarbon dating and the other methodologies are trumped up by atheists, fossil records are illusions, and all the hominids we find are just tricks to throw us off the scent! :p There was no ice age, American Indians arrived in the New World through teleportation, and Elvis is still alive....hiding in Florida. That's my analysis! LOL
I prefer the Flintstones example. ;) :D
 
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Knee V

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Well, the Earth is 5,000 years old, humans lived alongside dinosaurs like on Land of the Lost, fossils are the devil's trickery, radiocarbon dating and the other methodologies are trumped up by atheists, fossil records are illusions, and all the hominids we find are just tricks to throw us off the scent! :p There was no ice age, American Indians arrived in the New World through teleportation, and Elvis is still alive....hiding in Florida. That's my analysis! LOL

It's 6,000 years, American Indians are the descendants of Israelites who fled the Babylonian captivity, and Elvis was abducted by aliens... just ask Ray Stevens.
 
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Dorothea

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It's 6,000 years, American Indians are the descendants of Israelites who fled the Babylonian captivity, and Elvis was abducted by aliens... just ask Ray Stevens.

:D
 
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Knee V

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Elvis was abducted by aliens... just ask Ray Stevens.

That, or he's living in a nursing home in East Texas with JFK whose skin had been dyed black in order to go into hiding after his assassination attempt. I'm not sure which of those sources - Ray Stevens or Bruce Campbell - is more reliable. It could go either way.
 
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And the fact that there are coal deposits way, way up into the far northern latitudes where coal could NEVER be made under current weather and temperature conditions is just another one of those diabolical tricks to keep us thinking Pangaea and continental drift are real! :p Add to that the way rock strata across oceans line up perfectly in many instances and the fact that similar fossils of animals that never could've swam across oceans are found across oceanic divides, identical depths of coal and oil deposits, yep, Old Nick is a trickster! :p

And Elvis is actually Kurt Russell
 
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Protoevangel

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That, or he's living in a nursing home in East Texas with JFK whose skin had been dyed black in order to go into hiding after his assassination attempt. I'm not sure which of those sources - Ray Stevens or Bruce Campbell - is more reliable. It could go either way.
+ 1000 internets for the Bubba Ho-Tep reference, good sir!

Best movie EVAR!
 
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Protoevangel

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And the fact that there are coal deposits way, way up into the far northern latitudes where coal could NEVER be made under current weather and temperature conditions is just another one of those diabolical tricks to keep us thinking Pangaea and continental drift are real! :p Add to that the way rock strata across oceans line up perfectly in many instances and the fact that similar fossils of animals that never could've swam across oceans are found across oceanic divides, identical depths of coal and oil deposits, yep, Old Nick is a trickster! :p

And Elvis is actually Kurt Russell
Funny how I answered your questions respectfully, and here you start mocking people who disagree with you. I'm sure this tactic works well in shaming your students so they never disagree with you. And the smilies are a nice touch. Now you can accuse me of just not having a sense of humor. Well done Scott.
 
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Macarius

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Mac, please, you are encouraging BobRyan to continue breaking the rules.

And as you can see, it is spreading. Now Zazal is teaching... And he has been so respectful in the past. :sigh:

What exactly are you trying to do? Do you really think you are going to convince someone who has no respect for our faith or the rules of the forum?

I rarely write to convince the person to whom I am speaking in a forum, as forums rarely lend themselves to real discussion. TAW is often an exception to that. Generally, when I write in a public forum it is to convince those who are reading the conversation - 3rd parties are able to observe the relative merits of each position without themselves having a competitive stake in the discussion itself.

I agree that this thread is about to turn a corner from EO discussion to EO vs. non-EO debate. My replies to the above will encourage a new thread in St. Justin Martyr's corner to reflect that turn and preserve the original intent of this thread.
 
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Protoevangel

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I rarely write to convince the person to whom I am speaking in a forum, as forums rarely lend themselves to real discussion. TAW is often an exception to that. Generally, when I write in a public forum it is to convince those who are reading the conversation - 3rd parties are able to observe the relative merits of each position without themselves having a competitive stake in the discussion itself.

I agree that this thread is about to turn a corner from EO discussion to EO vs. non-EO debate. My replies to the above will encourage a new thread in St. Justin Martyr's corner to reflect that turn and preserve the original intent of this thread.
Okay.
 
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Macarius

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Greetings.

What I can't understand is that when people like yourself that love the L-rd succumb (and I use the word carefully) to the theory of evolution, you by default erode the plain simplicity of Scripture and re-inforce a humanistic theory discovered/invented/promulgated by a man who ultimately denied and turned from G-d because of the very nature of what he thought he had discovered...it became his pre-occupation, his motivation and in a sense his god.

If you'd like to debate the issue, and I'd be happy to do so, I'd encourage posting a new thread in St. Justin Martyr's Corner - our local subforum where non-Orthodox can freely debate positions with Orthodox Christians (something which is against forum rules in TAW's main forum - here). I understand, or I suppose that I assume, that your intent in this post is NOT to debate; it seems likely, though, that if I reply point by point it will almost necessarily become a debate and thus put you in the awkward position of either giving up on the discussion OR violating forum rules. Neither of those would be fair to you, so I invite you to St. Justin Martyr's corner to continue the discussion where we may have a more free reign.

I'll say this now, though: I don't profess theistic evolution as a truth. My words here have not been about advocating theistic evolution, but rather about defending its legitimacy within Orthodoxy as one view among many. That is, I would (and do) contend that theistic evolution contains nothing threatening to Orthodoxy; that is not synonymous with saying that I myself profess theistic evolution.

Like many Believers, I don't claim to fully understand the ins and outs of the opening chapters of Genesis, they are recorded in the form of a synopsis through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and probably by Moses.
I have never seen any indication that they are merely a story or a parable full of metaphor and hyperbole...indeed the way in which the events and characters are further referenced throughout Scripture precludes this idea as I see it, especially when you read 1Corinthians 15, which categorically makes reference to this part of the word of G-d and says IT IS WRITTEN...

45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

If we pursue the whole idea which erodes the word of G-d...what do we say when the Bible tells us He made Adam from the dust of the ground..are we to rationlise it or explain it away. In the same breath when Jesus spat in the dust and formed eyes in the blind man...doesn't such a thing speak of the Creator in action? John 9:

1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4“We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work. 5“While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” 6When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, 7and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.

The Apostle Paul references Adam...just as it is recorded in Genesis...and he was one of the greatest intellectuals of his era, and probably the greatest theologian of all time...

1 Tim 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam is included in several genealogies, including that of the L-rd's.

I could go on, but you see my point...so when you say,

"In my own reading, I see no necessary contradiction between Genesis 1 and the theory of evolution. The point of Genesis 1 is not, necessarily, to give a literal account of creation with a timed chronology; more likely (to my reading anyway), it is trying to affirm that God created, created good, and created in a way leading towards Christ. Evolution does not contradict this (or need not necessarily contradict this). "

As your brother in Messiah I would strongly disagree, and humbly suggest that the weight of biblical support for a straight-forward reading and understanding of Genesis is overwhelming...and to contemplate anything else even in the light of so-called scientific evidence, actually calls into question the veracity of YHWH.

Obviously, we disagree. In preview of our potential discussion, I would likely point to three things:
1) the assumption of the simple reading of Scripture is a false assumption; there is no such thing (and, indeed, the ancient church - even in the pages of the New Testament - make it clear that Scripture was thought to be quite cryptic and in need of interpretation).

2) you rather ironically accuse me of using a modernist or humanist lens when my whole point has been quite the opposite - the two fold assumption(s) that A) Scriptural Truth is primarily contained in historical accuracy and that B) the Scriptures ought to be used for historical reconstruction are BOTH quite post-Renaissance / modernist in their tone. The earlier Christians, of whom I could cite quite a few starting within the pages of the New Testament and continuing unabated for centuries, did NOT assume EITHER of those two things.

The intent to use Genesis 1 as a literal record of history is the modernist and humanist assumption; my desire to use typological and allegorical understandings of the text is quite PRE-modern and very, very UN-humanist. My whole point is that the theistic evolution v. young earth creationism is an irrelevant product of needless hold-overs from modernist Christianity, and that the emphasis people place on that debate distracts from the real meaning of the text: Christ.

3) you assume that where Scripture refers to itself, it does so in a literal way. If a typological interpretation works in one part of Scripture, it works again when Scripture refers to that same story.

If you like, feel free to copy-paste your post here into ST. Justin's and I'll go more line by line (or take my three brief pseudo-replies and start from there - I'm flexible). If you'd prefer not to, that's fine to. I just wanted to offer.

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Macarius

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If you'd like to debate, and I very much welcome debate, I'd encourage posting a new thread in St. Justin Martyr's corner where you can freely debate with Orthodox Christians without violating forum policies / rules.

Ok but you see how I might get that idea from the wording of the text itself.

"six days you shall labor... for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them and rested on the seventh day therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy"

So it is not like that idea just came out of thin air on my part.

Yes. Certainly - the literal reading of a text is (in a broad sense) a legitimate one; it is precisely this which gave the Pharisees reason to complain against Christ and which, in the 2nd century, gave Trypho the Jew reasons to complain against the Christian (non-literal) understanding of the Old Testament (as recorded in St. Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho").

You are absolutely right that the Christo-centric understanding of the OT is NOT obvious, NOT self-evident; that is why NO ONE understood who the Messiah was to be prior to the Messiah Himself manifesting. Even at the Cross, the Apostles abandoned Christ (at least in the Synoptic Gospels); they didn't understand the empty tomb.

But we can see in the Gospels (which are the Apostles' later reflections on and interpretations of their experience of Christ) and the other parts of the New Testament that they DID come to understand; and this reflective process of exegeting Christ through the words of the Old Testament continued in the subsequent centuries. I've lots of examples if you want them.

So yes - you are pointing to a text, and I understand the concept / argument you are making. My point, though, is that you are not allowing your interpretation to be Christ-centered enough. That leaves you out of step with the methodology that we see illustrated in the pages of the New Testament and other early christian writings.

BTW - given that Christ was not crucified every 7 days, and given that you are not keeping Sunday in response to the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten commandments - what is the other "7 day" reason that you use?

Here I'm not sure I understand you. We keep Sunday as the day of Christ's Resurrection, the Lord's Day, as recorded in the Book of Acts, the Didache, Pliny's Letter to Trajan, etc. (in other words, as was done from the beginning by the Church). The day before the Resurrection Christ rested in the tomb - He rested on the Sabbath (Saturday). We therefore keep Saturday as the Sabbath. We worship God every day of every week, but those two days are part of the weekly cycle every week (Sabbath and Resurrection).

We do not need to imagine Christ as re-crucified; in the worship of the Church, we encounter the eschaton itself - the timelessness of the eternity of the kingdom is made present by the Holy Spirit in the Person of Jesus Christ in our worship. This timelessness means that we encounter again, or make manifest again, or re-member (to member / put together again), Christ's death and resurrection in our worship; this is just as St. Paul says in his Corinthian correspondence, that as often as we do these things we proclaim Christ's death till He comes.

Is your question "why do we have a seven day week?" Biblical numeric symbolism seems to be an adequate reason. Seven shows up all over the place, and was clearly a significant number for the Biblical authors.

If you like, feel free to copy and past what I've written here up to St. Justin Martyr's corner. If you prefer not to, that's fine. But it is against forum rules to continue debating here.

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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