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Evolution and you?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by GBTWC, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    To be clear, the way I understand it, part of God being love is also possessing the ability of judgement...for even when he punishes harshly or creates means of punishment as He did throughout the OT (especially as it concerns violating His Holiness), it was an expression of His love since love also has a dark side. It's like seeing the fury of a Husband when he's cheated on and remembering that the jealously/threat to others who harm his wife is an expression of the deep love he has....and with creating dangerous forces in creation, it'd be a reminder of how the Lord is not to be messed with. When you see things like hurricanes or tornados or volcanos and many other things, those things (IMHO) are not random occurrences or results of the Fall. I think those things are simply apart of the nature the Lord created-----all of it reflective of His power and reminders of why he should be feared. And the same goes animals who were created.

    I do think the Lord created deadly forces outside of the Garden to remind Adam/Eve of what would await them as it concerns man's free will.....and having the choice they made possess a visible picture so that they'd know exactly what they're going into. The same way as it concerns the angels/hell being created and them choosing to go there.....or others choosing to live in darkness. But that's just me..
     
  2. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Depends on the animals. Lions and rhinos and those types of animals fall into the category of basically saying "I'm not obeying humans any longer. It is them who have cast us out of Paradise." Others, such as birds, some rodents, and smaller such animals fear man. Maybe when I'm not still ill with this stomach virus, I can post a few parts of the book so you can get what I'm talking about. Here's the book via amazon:

    http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Man-J...ywords=Animals+and+Man+a+State+of+Blessedness

    Well, we all know death entered the world after Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God, out of His mercy, banished them from the Garden.
     
  3. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Can't say I agree with you on this.

    Can't say I agree with you here, either. :sorry: :)
     
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    We do know that plant life died due to how it was given for food to the rest of creation...and as it concerns Adam/Eve, it doesn't seem they were created immortal due to how they hadn't eaten of the Tree of Life yet (which is why the Lord banished them since they'd live forever once they ate of it...and be stuck in eternal sinful state).

    I do wonder on what kind of death was being referenced when it says death entered the world...and whether it was spiritual primarily or physically. Adam didn't die in an instant, as he lived for several more centuries--and thus, to say that the phrase "you will surely die in the day you eat of the tree" means literal death makes me pause. It seems to be more going on there..

    Many thanks for the Book reference :)
     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    That's cool. You're of the mindset that God doesn't control the elements in nature? Just trying to be certain...as for me, it's hard to see otherwise based on what the Lord has said of Himself:
    Isa 30: 30
    And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones

    Ezek 38: 22
    And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

    Jer 10: 13
    When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.
    Isaiah 64: 1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! 3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

    Not a problem. Everyone sees things differently on some level...:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  6. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Death meaning of humans. There's a great read on this subject from a former article from the OCA that I saved in my ms word documents, but unfortunately, I'm not downstairs at my computer since I'm ill right now. I'll try to post it later, whenever i'm feeling better.

    Spiritual and physical death happened after the fall, but for Adam and Eve, it was the spiritual death because they had lost His Grace and were separated from Him and no longer walked with Him in the Garden. Of course, Adam and Eve eventually did die a physical death.



    yw. :)
     
  7. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    I tend to believe all the natural disasters are caused by the sins of the world. This not brought on by God, but by ourselves. There's an article on this as well, but I don't think it's in hubby's laptop that I'm on right now. I posted it only a while back in the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation, I'm pretty sure.

    Found it googling:

    MYSTAGOGY: 12/14/11
     
  8. mathetes123

    mathetes123 Newbie

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    I am against the theory of evolution as it undermines the gospel and the authority of scripture. It cannot be reconciled with the Bible.
     
  9. GodActsOnMe

    GodActsOnMe Scientificum Christianus

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    How is that so?
     
  10. The Unorthodox Orthodox

    The Unorthodox Orthodox Newbie

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    In your opinion of course.
    Because I and many other believers, theologians and priests disagree with that statement as you can see here;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

    In any case, everyone is intitled to his/her own opinions.
    But please, try not to be that absolute and try not to talk in a "if-you-are-not-with-me-you-are-against-me" manner because this is bound to end up in misanderstandings.

    Yours in Christ, Nikolaos.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    just for your first point. not necessarily. we know that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit and nuts of the Garden, but the plant life within those plants would only have died if both their forms were subject to decay and the human digestive system worked the same. if both are a byproduct of the Fall, then they would not have worked the same way we know them to work now.

    the Wisdom of Solomon says that God created no death, so I tend to believe that there was no death anywhere before the Fall. but that's just me.
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    I think that there are some things you may have missed when considering what Brother Marcius was saying on reading Genesis. There are indeed many aspects of Genesis that are best read in a literal light and the scriptures seem to note often where figures were indeed historical/literal such as Adam. To say that such an individual did not exist would create a myriad of problems....including the reference to geneologies and the claims of Christ. A literal reading of Genesis does a lot to address that.

    On the same token, there are other clear aspects of Genesis that would not make sense or be scientifically sound if assuming that all parts of the Genesis account be taken literally. The greatest example of this, IMHO, can be found in the identity of the serpent. People have often read the text and assumed that all snakes are descendants of the serpent in the Garden----and they thus assume all snakes must be cursed even when the scriptures don't necessarily say that.

    Due to how the Lord told the Serpent in Genesis 3 that he would craw on his belly the rest of his days, many have assumed that all snakes in our time/since were descendants of the Serpent who decieved Eve........and many try to make the conclusion based on how others in the world of science have been of the mindset that snakes used to have legs (more shared here, here , here, and here), even though others have noted that even some lizards do not have legs/seem similar to snakes.(more shared here/here )--wit the main difference between lizards and snakes being external ears and eyelids.


    [​IMG]

    I have always struggled with that since some say that the translation of the word Nachash (used for serpent) does not mean snake like we see them today...and for more, one can consider the work of Michael S. Heiser--- a Hebrew scholar who points out that "the Hebrew word "serpent" is Nachash..which is actually an adjective (meaning 'bright,' 'brazen'....as in shiny brass). For in his view, he points out the Hebrew in detail..for essentially, the Nachash, or "serpent," was actually a being of light translated as "the shining one." And as Michael describes, this is clearly in line with other descriptions of the enemy in in the Old Testament..and the NT when it comes to describing him as an angel of light (more discussed here ).


    Personally, I think it's more than reasonable..especially when considering the reality of how the Serpent/Devil was not necessarily within Adam's Jurisdiction as all the other animals...as after his fall, he was essentially "renegade"/"off the grid" so to speak. It makes more than enough sense to say "Serpent" was literally the Angel of Light rather than an actual animal or in the sense of the Enemy possessing the body of an animal the Lord had already made known as snakes..as it'd be pretty foolish that all of the snakes were now made to pay for the mistakes of one who was out of control ( lol).


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]





    For a good read on the issue, one can go to Evolution - GeoCreationist Perspective on Evolution -Genesis 3:14-15 - When the Serpent Lost His Legs

    Apart from that, to assume that all snakes are "cursed"/corrupt would be off since the scriptures repeatedly noted where they were often highly praised. Indeed, God often spoke negatively of them in the scriptures ( Genesis 49:16-18 , Numbers 21:5-7, Deuteronomy 32:32-34 , Job 20:13-15, Psalm 140:2-4 , 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 , Matthew 23:32-34, Luke 10:18-20 )---and yet they were considered admirable/things God noted as valuable/to be appreciated it often ( Matthew 10:15-17, Proverbs 18-19).



    Proverbs notes where the snake was admired/valued at one point due to how amazing it was. The way of a serpent upon a rock is amazing since the snake has no arms, legs, or feet.....and for it to slither /twist through on a smooth rock where there is no leverage (unlike grass or sand)---using no toeholds and leaving no tracks, yet moving efficiently...that is all the wise design of the Lord. ​

    Moses himself used the symbol of a snake (when his rod turned into one) when facing the oppressors of the Hebrews...as seen in Exodus 4:3-5 / Exodus 4 , Exodus 7:9-11 )--and within the ancient world of the Hebrews, snakes were noted as symbols of wisdom/things admired on many levels, just as people still admire them today.

    All of that is said to make the point that it can be very off to assume that all aspects of Genesis must be literal if/when certain things literally don't make sense in nature or fit in with the rest of the scriptural narrative...as it concerns the Serpent/his role. There was more going on...​
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Got ya...



    Can definately see how spiritual death was what entered the world due to Adam/Eve's sin. Evil does seem to be present in the world long before Adam/Eve arrived...and in many ways, man intensified it, IMHO. But man was never meant to be living life the way he sees it now...
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Good read and interesting points, as it concerns the ways that sins of the world can bring suffering in the realm of weather patterns. SOme of this is seen in the practical as well, especially as it concerns many ecological events that harmed man and yet were the result of his own doing (i.e. Gulf Oil Spill, the Dust Bowl of the 1920-30s due to abuse of the soil, a warming climate leading to tornado frequency increasing in areas that were seen as a colder climate in an average year, Droughts due to mishandling water cycles, etc, toxic waste/environmental lack of stewardship, etc). And some things are simply punishment from the Lord allowing man to be punished for his own sins...
     
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Could definately see that, as it concerns the plants perhaps being eaten and yet regrowing themselves without disappearing as they do today.
    That book has always been very powerful to study...
     
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