Eternal Security

[iwbswiaihl2]

iwb,

I do not avoid calling saints sinners.

That's your choice, but has nothing to do with God never referring to His children by the title of sinner.

This writer has summarised some biblical material to show that ....

As for John 8:30, you wrote, ' I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads'.

What on earth are you talking about? John 8:30 states, 'As he was saying these things, many believed in him'. What has that to do with eternal security as the 'believed' is in the aorist tense and thus speaks of a point action time in the past? How does that affirm eternal security?

Oz

sorry about that, John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

This shows the principle and is why in John 15:6 those branches that are burned do not abide in His word as opposed to those in v7.

John 15:6-7 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you

 

[timur123456789]

Do you agree that someone who have to have a heart to do such things? A nature to do such things?

I believe that person can work on himself and train his will and eventually "learn" how to love.
This life was given us to "learn how to love".

 

[98cwitr]

I believe that person can work on himself and train his will and eventually "learn" how to love.
This life was given us to "learn how to love".

So you wouldn't agree with the notion of "Total Depravity" then huh?

Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jeremiah 13:23 (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[timur123456789]

So you wouldn't agree with the notion of "Total Depravity" then huh?

"

I do believe that man is born selfish. And it takes time and effort for a person to learn how to get rid himself from that selfishness and learn how to Love God and neighbor.

However "to learn how to Love Lord and your neighbor" IS a a gift of God, man can not do it by himself but only through grace.

As the matter of fact man can not do anything of good out of himself but from God.

 

[98cwitr]

I do believe that man is born selfish. And it takes time and effort for a person to learn how to get rid himself from that selfishness and learn how to Love God and neighbor.

However "to learn how to Love Lord and your neighbor" IS a a gift of God, man can not do it by himself but only through grace.

As the matter of fact man can not do anything of good out of himself but from God.

Im hearing two things here:

1. Man is capable of getting rid of his selfishness via his own will
2. Man is incapable of getting rid of his selfishness unless God enables him to do so via grace

^^Is this correctly stated?

 

[SeventhValley]

I do believe that man is born selfish. And it takes time and effort for a person to learn how to get rid himself from that selfishness and learn how to Love God and neighbor.

However "to learn how to Love Lord and your neighbor" IS a a gift of God, man can not do it by himself but only through grace.

As the matter of fact man can not do anything of good out of himself but from God.

That is the Biblical view.

 

[timur123456789]

Im hearing two things here:

1. Man is capable of getting rid of his selfishness via his own will
2. Man is incapable of getting rid of his selfishness unless God enables him to do so via grace

^^Is this correctly stated?

Man should as of his own will to get rid himself from selfishness but it should be believed even though it appears as the man is acting himself it is God who is really working in man in getting rid man from his selfishness through His grace.

 

[98cwitr]

Man should as of his own will to get rid himself from selfishness but it should be believed even though it appears as the man is acting himself it is God who is really working in man in getting rid man from his selfishness through His grace.

So is one view simply a perception and the other actual?

 

[timur123456789]

So is one view simply a perception and the other actual?

Yes.

 

[98cwitr]

Yes.

What is the value in a perception?

 

[timur123456789]

What is the value in a perception?

Can you please specify your question.

You don't agree that:

1)Love towards the Lord and your neighbor is gift of God.
2)Man should repent of his selfishness and try to live good life to get saved.
3)Process of learning how to repent and living a good life IS a gift of God.
4)Man can not do anything good from himself, only from God.
5)Anything good that man does is from God and is a Gift of God.
6)Even though it appears as if man is repenting and trying to live a good life in REALITY it is GOD inside of man doing all that is good. (John 15:5)

With which of these you disagree and why ?

 

[98cwitr]

Love is not defined here...I guess that's where I'm having a break down in simply answering your last question.

I can love my neighbor without God, but I cannot love by neighbor as myself without Him

I can love God superficially (say prayers, go to church, have a bible study, ask for God to give me things) without God, but I cannot be reborn in Spirit without God nor can I love him with all my heart, soul, and mind. I cannot have real faith without God.

You do see the stark a heavy-weighted differences here? The difference between loving your neighbor and loving your neighbor as yourself? The difference between loving God and loving God with all your heart and soul and mind?

 

[OzSpen]

DeaconDean,

So I respectfully disagree with your accessment.

I do hope you mean assessment and not accessment. Accessment is not a word in my dictionary.

Also you wrote, 'Now, regarding the Hebrews passage, I'm sure your familiar with Kittles?' His name is spelled Kittel.

I agree with the Greek exegesis of Kittel (I have the 10 volumes of the Theological Dictionary that he co-edited with Gerhard Friedrich). Where he explained that a person who commits apostasy cannot be brought again to repentance. That's Bible.

See my detailed exposition of Hebrews 6:4-8 in ‘Once Saved, Always Saved or Once Saved, Lost Again? What you have cited from John Gill on Heb. 6:4-6 is not in agreement with the exegesis I have provided in this exposition I have provided in this link.

I wrote, 'John 10:28-29 cannot be read in isolation apart from John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6'. What did I notice in your response? You provided not one word to refute the content of John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6, which teach that eternal life is conditional. People will continue to have eternal life if they continue to believe and those who continue to remain in the vine. These verses are contrary to the view you are advocating.

In my understanding of the exegesis, a once saved, always saved view is not taught by these verses that require continuing belief to enter eternal life. And that is taught by John 3:16 as well, 'whoever believes' means 'whoever continues to believe' because the Greek for 'believes' is a present tense Greek participle, indicating continuining action. Thus affirming the other verses that I've cited from John that continuing/continuous believing is needed to enter eternal life.

Thus, perseverance of the saints is a much more biblical description of the biblical perspective - as I understand the Greek present tense used in the verses I have mentioned - than a once saved, always saved view (based on my understanding of the Greek grammar of the meaning of the present tense).

In the Baptist church in which I was raised, I was taught the view you are advocating of once saved, always saved. But my examination of these Scriptures has brought me to the view I am here sharing. I take seriously the Scriptural injunction:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers [and sisters], for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness (James 3:1 ESV)

The NLT and the new NIV correctly translate adelphoi as brothers and sisters, based on the Greek etymology This is shown in the New Living Translation and the latest NIV. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon confirms that 'brother' as in the singular adelphos means any believer, male or female. Arndt and Gingrich note that 'Jesus calls everyone who is devoted to him brother Mt 12:50; Mk 3:25, esp. the disciples Mt 28:10; J 20:17. Hence gener. for those in such spiritual communion Mt 25:40; Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23[22:22), 17 al' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:15-16).

So I respectfully come to a different conclusion to yours.

Sincerely in Christ, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That's your choice, but has nothing to do with God never referring to His children by the title of sinner.

sorry about that, John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

This shows the principle and is why in John 15:6 those branches that are burned do not abide in His word as opposed to those in v7.

John 15:6-7 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you

Now let's do the exegesis to obtain the meaning of John 8:31, which stated in full reads,

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" (ESV).

'Had believed' is a perfect tense, active voice, participle. Thus it means that those believed in the past and had continuing results of believing. As for 'abide' it is an aorist subjunctive verb. It is the conditional subjunctive and a point action, but it needs to be combined with the perfect tense of 'had believed' to understand that the meaning is that these Jews had believed in Jesus but they had continuing believing. As a result, they 'are' (present tense, continuous action) continuing to be his disciples.

Therefore, based on this exegesis of the Greek text, eternal security is based on continuing to be a disciple. This is not talking about once saved and no longer serving God. It is talking about once saved and continuing to be saved by continuing to believe. That's why I find the language of 'once saved, always saved' to send a message that does not line up with the biblical message of continuing to believe to attain eternal life (as in John 3:16; 3:36; 6:27; 15:6).

John 15:6-7 affirms the need to continue to abide (believe) to remain in the vine.

Is this what you are affirming?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That's your choice, but has nothing to do with God never referring to His children by the title of sinner.

The authoritative Scripture states in 1 Timothy 1:15,

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost (ESV)

Paul, in writing the God-breathed Scripture states in this verse that Jesus came to save sinners of whom egw eimi (I indeed continue to be - present tense). What does he continue to be? The God-breathed Scripture says that Paul continues to be 'the foremost' of sinners. Present tense, continuing action.

I beg to differ that God never calls His children sinners. God most certainly did it through the added emphasis is egw. The straight eimi could have been all that was necessary to emphasise that Paul is a continuing sinner. But by adding egw, the emphasis is: I indeed am (continue to be) the foremost of sinners.

If the former persecutor of the church (see I Cor 15:9) regarded himself as a continuing sinner and it is recorded in the God-breathed, authoritative Scripture, that is asserting that Christians continue to sin as we grow up in Jesus and 'put off the old man'. Ephesians 4:22-24 states,

22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness (ESV).

I'll speak for me also. I've been a committed evangelical Christian for a long time and I thank God for growth in Christ, but I know that I'm a continuing sinner who sins and needs to seek God's forgiveness.

Oz

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Now let's do the exegesis to obtain the meaning of John 8:31, which stated in full reads,

'Had believed' is a perfect tense, active voice, participle. Thus it means that those believed in the past and had continuing results of believing. As for 'abide' it is an aorist subjunctive verb. It is the conditional subjunctive and a point action, but it needs to be combined with the perfect tense of 'had believed' to understand that the meaning is that these Jews had believed in Jesus but they had continuing believing. As a result, they 'are' (present tense, continuous action) continuing to be his disciples.

Therefore, based on this exegesis of the Greek text, eternal security is based on continuing to be a disciple. This is not talking about once saved and no longer serving God. It is talking about once saved and continuing to be saved by continuing to believe. That's why I find the language of 'once saved, always saved' to send a message that does not line up with the biblical message of continuing to believe to attain eternal life (as in John 3:16; 3:36; 6:27; 15:6).

John 15:6-7 affirms the need to continue to abide (believe) to remain in the vine.

Is this what you are affirming?

Oz

After reading your comments here, without going back rereading all the earlier posts I am confused as to why we have disagreed. Other than these in v30 had believed just as Jesus had spoken in the preceding verses and later on in this chapter we see that it is not leading to their salvation. But as far as your other explanations in this post I would agree that saving faith is a one time event that needs not to be renewed but saving faith is a present tense action that will evidence itself in abiding in His word. God looks at the heart and even know the future so He is not sealing and unsealing His children. They are sealed unto the day of redemption. It is God holding on to us and not us holding on to God, Ps 37:23-24, God is the one performing the action of the holding on to us. That is why I agree with Paul when he said being fully persuaded that He who began the good work in you will perform it unto the end.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

The authoritative Scripture states in 1 Timothy 1:15,
Paul, in writing the God-breathed Scripture states in this verse that Jesus came to save sinners of whom egw eimi (I indeed continue to be - present tense). What does he continue to be? The God-breathed Scripture says that Paul continues to be 'the foremost' of sinners. Present tense, continuing action.

The Strong's Interlinear which I sometimes use on Studylight says the same of the present tense, middle voice and indicative mood with the indicative as you know being simply a statement of fact. And adds that some English text would use a past tense instead of the present tense: Present The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. "Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present". Nevertheless looking at v15-16 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. And as you may know, however, for this reason I obtained mercy is the aorist, past tense as well as the next phrase that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering. So Paul could just have easy have been referring to himself as one of those sinners before conversion, except been the chief one because of his persecuting the Church, but he said he did it in ignorance.

I beg to differ that God never calls His children sinners. God most certainly did it through the added emphasis is egw. The straight eimi could have been all that was necessary to emphasise that Paul is a continuing sinner. But by adding egw, the emphasis is: I indeed am (continue to be) the foremost of sinners.

If the former persecutor of the church (see I Cor 15:9) regarded himself as a continuing sinner and it is recorded in the God-breathed, authoritative Scripture, that is asserting that Christians continue to sin as we grow up in Jesus and 'put off the old man'. Ephesians 4:22-24 states,

I'll speak for me also. I've been a committed evangelical Christian for a long time and I thank God for growth in Christ, but I know that I'm a continuing sinner who sins and needs to seek God's forgiveness.

Oz

It would have been helpful to me to have seen those verses where God called them sinners by name and not by an act of sin. I am not saying Christian's do not commit sin after conversion, but that we are referred to as His children, saints, etc. After all, one that lives in habitual sin John said is not of God in 1 John.

A sinner is not a saint, because a saint he ain't, but take away the inner fleshly heart of the sinner and add the s(saved) to his previous name ain't and he becomes a saint. For some reason this popped into my head this morning.

 

[OzSpen]

After reading your comments here, without going back rereading all the earlier posts I am confused as to why we have disagreed. Other than these in v30 had believed just as Jesus had spoken in the preceding verses and later on in this chapter we see that it is not leading to their salvation. But as far as your other explanations in this post I would agree that saving faith is a one time event that needs not to be renewed but saving faith is a present tense action that will evidence itself in abiding in His word. God looks at the heart and even know the future so He is not sealing and unsealing His children. They are sealed unto the day of redemption. It is God holding on to us and not us holding on to God, Ps 37:23-24, God is the one performing the action of the holding on to us. That is why I agree with Paul when he said being fully persuaded that He who began the good work in you will perform it unto the end.

I'm not so sure that we are in agreement as I have provided verses to confirm that John 10:28-29 is in harmony with John 3:16; 3:36; 6:47; and 15:6 where believers are required to continue to believe to attain eternal life. Thus OSAS, in my understanding, is an improper explanation of this view as apostasy can be committed (1 Tim 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; 1 John 4:1-3).

Is it your understanding that a person can be generally saved, continue to follow Jesus, walk away from the faith and then commit apostasy? And the person who commits apostasy cannot be brought again to repentance (Heb 6:4-6). If this is your view, then we are on the same page. But is that your view?

But the OSAS is what I was raised on and I've rejected it because I do not find it taught with a consistent hermeneutic in Scripture.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The Strong's Interlinear which I sometimes use on Studylight says the same of the present tense, middle voice and indicative mood with the indicative as you know being simply a statement of fact. And adds that some English text would use a past tense instead of the present tense: Present The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. "Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present". Nevertheless looking at v15-16 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. And as you may know, however, for this reason I obtained mercy is the aorist, past tense as well as the next phrase that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering. So Paul could just have easy have been referring to himself as one of those sinners before conversion, except been the chief one because of his persecuting the Church, but he said he did it in ignorance.



It would have been helpful to me to have seen those verses where God called them sinners by name and not by an act of sin. I am not saying Christian's do not commit sin after conversion, but that we are referred to as His children, saints, etc. After all, one that lives in habitual sin John said is not of God in 1 John.

A sinner is not a saint, because a saint he ain't, but take away the inner fleshly heart of the sinner and add the s(saved) to his previous name ain't and he becomes a saint. For some reason this popped into my head this morning.

Brother, we are saints who continue to sin and seek God's forgiveness. That makes believers sinning saints who seek repentance and forgiveness from God - AFTER they become genuine Christians.

I find that such a view matches Scripture and my experience as an evangelical Christian in the real world - after 50 years of believing and a short time of wandering in the wilderness of sin when in my teens.

It would have been helpful to me to have seen those verses where God called them sinners by name and not by an act of sin. I am not saying Christian's do not commit sin after conversion, but that we are referred to as His children, saints, etc. After all, one that lives in habitual sin John said is not of God in 1 John.

God doesn't write the Scripture (using human beings to do it) to provide us with information the way we would like it explained. The fact remains that one truly born again apostle Paul, after he was a believer, said, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture that he continued to be 'the foremost of sinners'. I stick with what the Scriptures state and not what I would like them to state.

I do wish my two friends who have committed apostasy would be able to return to repentance, but Hebrews 6:4-6 says that is not possible as "they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt" (6:6 ESV). Heb. 6:4 is adamant in its teaching on those who commit apostasy: "for it is impossible to restore again to repentance". That's not the way my limited understanding of compassion and mercy works. But that's based on the absolute justice, empathy, love and compassion of the absolutely honest Almighty God.

I have an ultimate commitment to the Lord God Almighty who revealed His will in the infallible Scriptures (in the original languages).

Oz

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I'm not so sure that we are in agreement as I have provided verses to confirm that John 10:28-29 is in harmony with John 3:16; 3:36; 6:47; and 15:6 where believers are required to continue to believe to attain eternal life. Thus OSAS, in my understanding, is an improper explanation of this view as apostasy can be committed (1 Tim 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; 1 John 4:1-3).

Is it your understanding that a person can be generally saved, continue to follow Jesus, walk away from the faith and then commit apostasy? And the person who commits apostasy cannot be brought again to repentance (Heb 6:4-6). If this is your view, then we are on the same page. But is that your view?

But the OSAS is what I was raised on and I've rejected it because I do not find it taught with a consistent hermeneutic in Scripture.

Oz

Now reading this does refresh my memory and you are right, we don't agree completely, just on what you had said in the other post. And no I do not believe that apostasy applies to those having received salvation. And if one reads what even you said about John 8:31 they would see that Jesus said His true disciples will abide in His word therefore one cannot commit apostasy and be a true disciple because they did not abide in His word. Had they been true disciple they would have abide, that is Jesus whole point in that passage. The same in 15, the branches attached to Him bears fruit and those that do not bear fruit are not attached to the vine is what Jesus says, John 15:4-8 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. Does it not say in v4 that the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine? Does v5 not say that those who remain in Him bear much fruit, for without Him they can do nothing? Does it not say that those who do not abide are burned because they bear no fruit, no fruit because they are not attached to the vine, otherwise v8 happens, they bear much fruit and show that they are His disciples. Does it say these things or not?

That is the same principle that Jesus was teaching in Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Jesus did not declare He once knew these but He never knew them because they lived a habitual life of practicing lawlessness. And putting what Jesus said together in John and here shows that those attached to Him will bear fruit and glorify the Father because they are attached to the vine and they continue to abide in Him. We are accepted in the Beloved. Its His righteousness that the believer stands on and is the reason they are reconciled to the Father.John6:37-40 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

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