Eternal Security

[OzSpen]

I believe you are in error.

1 Thes 2:3 saying nothing of what you post.

"For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:" -1 Thes. 2:3 (KJV)

I believe you mean:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" -2 Thes. 2:3 (KJV)

John Gill comments:



Source

There is a great article written by Arthur W. Pink in the mid 1920's on "Eternal Security".

God Bless

Till all are one.

You are correct. I inadvertently referred to 1 Thess 2:3 when it should have been 2 Thess 2:3. In this last verse, apostasia (apostasy) by Christians is taught in the last days.

Oz

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

​

However, the facts are that apostasia means 'rebellion, abandonment in religious sense, apostasy' (Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon 1957:97). Thus, apostasy from the faith is taught in the Bible.

Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament also confirms the reality that apostasy does happen and the NT affirms such:
This again emphasises that the NT does teach about Christians who will commit apostasy.

Oz

Just because that is your understanding does not mean that it is true. The context of that passage declares they were not saved that departed from the faith and you were shown that. You should be able to show from the context that they were saved. One that turns from the faith is not abiding and Jesus said His true disciples will abide in His word and you were shown that also in John 8:30-31, so it is the word of God that you disagree with.

2 Thess 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[DeaconDean]

I also wish to add that the passage in 2 Thes. 2:3, taken out of context would lead someone to believe that "Christians" could apostasize".

However, in his commentary on Hebrews, Arthur W. Pink writes:

If on the one hand, Arminians have been too ready to read into this passage their unscriptural dogma of the apostasy of a Christian, it must be confessed that many Calvinists have failed to grapple successfully with and interpret satisfactorily the most knotty points in these verses. They are right in affirming that Scripture teaches, most emphatically and unequivocably the Divine preservation and the human perseverance of the saints, as they have also wisely pointed out that the Word of God does not and cannot contradict itself. If our Lord asserted that His sheep should "never perish" (John 10:28), then certainly Hebrews 6 will not teach that some of them do. If through the apostle Paul the Holy Spirit assures us that nothing can separate the children from the love of their Father (Rom. 8:35-39), then, without doubt, the portion now before us does not declare that something will. It may not always be easy to discover the perfect consistency of one scripture with another, yet we must hold fast to the unerring harmony and integrity of God’s Truth.

Source

He goes further to say:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" etc. (verse 4). Here the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth. It draws a terrible contrast from the possibility of verse 3. "The apostle regards the retrogression of the Hebrews with dismay. He sees in it the danger of an entire, confirmed, wilful, and irrecoverable apostasy from the truth. He beholds them on the brink of a precipice, and he therefore lifts up his voice, and with vehement yet loving earnestness he warns them against so fearful an evil" (Adolph Saphir).

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".
"Afterwards, when the apostle comes to declare his hope and persuasion concerning these Hebrews that they were not such as those whom he had before described, nor such as would fall away unto perdition, he doth it upon three grounds whereon they were differenced from them as: 1. That they had such things as did ‘accompany salvation’; that is, such as salvation is inseparable from. None of these things therefore had he ascribed unto those whom he describeth in this place (verses 4-6); for if he had so done, they would not have been unto him an argument and evidence of a contrary end, that these should not fall away and perish as well as those. Wherefore he ascribes nothing to these here in the text that doth peculiarly ‘accompany salvation’. 2. He describes them by their duties of obedience and fruits of faith. This was their ‘work and labor of love’ towards the name of God, verse 10. And hereby, also, doth he differentiate them from those in the text, concerning whom he supposeth that they may perish eternally, which these fruits of saving faith and sincere love cannot do. 3. He adds, that, in the preservation of those there mentioned, the faithfulness of God was concerned: ‘God is not unrighteous to forget’. For they were such he intended as were interested in the covenant of grace, with respect whereunto alone there is any engagement on the faithfulness or righteousness of God to preserve men from apostasy and ruin; and there is so with an equal respect unto all who are so taken into the covenant. But of those in the text he supposeth no such thing; and thereupon doth not intimate that either the righteousness or faithfulness of God was anyway engaged for their preservation, but rather the contrary" (Dr. John Owen).

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. It is to be observed that this item is placed in the center of the five, and this because it describes the animating principle of the other four, which are all effects. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates. We quote below from Dr. J. Brown:

"It is highly probable that the inspired writer refers primarily to the miraculous gifts and operations of the Holy Spirit by which the primitive dispensation of Christianity was administered. These gifts were by no means confined to those who were ‘transformed by the renewing of their minds’. The words of our Lord in Matthew 7:22, 23 and of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1, 2 seem to intimate, that the possession of these unrenewed men was not very uncommon in that age; at any rate they plainly show that their possession and an unregenerate state were by no means incompatible".

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Ibid

Sorry, I don't see where true believing, born again Christians can apostasize.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[SeventhValley]

Sounds "No true Scotsman" to me Dean . It is a interesting read.

From my own point of view you can fall away.

Romans 11:23-24

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?

Hebrews 6:4-6

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because,[a] to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

 

[universalsoldier]

You cannot lose your salvation. What? Are you going to forget where you put it?

Oh, gosh I lost my salvation; I can't remember where I put it.

 

[JM]

You cannot lose your salvation. What? Are you going to forget where you put it?

Oh, gosh I lost my salvation; I can't remember where I put it.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Sounds "No true Scotsman" to me Dean . It is a interesting read.

From my own point of view you can fall away.

Romans 11:23-24

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?

Reading this passage as to context, who were the natural branches that are mentioned as being cut off and when did they live? We notice why they were cut off in v19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief and Paul says to the Gentiles that they too will be cut off if they exercised the same unbelief as did the Jews. Neither is said to have been in the faith but they are those who remain in unbelief.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

Paul had said he had persecuted the Church but received forgiveness because he did it in ignorance, 1Tim1:12-13 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. These here in Hebrews do so having full knowledge that Jesus is being preached as the way to God and they willing reject Him therefore as the passage says, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. It also states that it is impossible to renew someone like this because there is no other way of repentance except in Jesus. Besides, this would create another unforgiveable sin if it could be done by a Christian and scripture only teaches one unforgiveable sin, doesn't it?

 

[JM]

Jesus made a one time sacrifice for sin. (Heb. 10.12) At the very least, if you loose (or misplace) your salvation, you'll never get it back.

 

[98cwitr]

*lose

 

[universalsoldier]

#lose on Twitter.

 

[timur123456789]

We are not saved by physical actions ,however we are SAVED by our GOOD intentions towards the Lord and our neighbor , which at the right moment sprint into physical actions.

1)We need to Love the Lord and our neighbor to get saved.
2)To love means to have good intentions toward someone.
3)To have truly good intentions means to act upon them physically if the moment arises.


1)Support for number ONE:
[bible]37 And Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." Deut. 6:5
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18
40 On these two commandments all the Law and the Prophets hang.
(Mt.22:37-40)[/bible]

2)Support for number TWO:
[bible]20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother whom he has seen, how is he able to love God whom he has not seen?
(1Jn.4:20)[/bible]

3)Support for number THREE:
[bible]22 But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word, and not a doer, this one is like a man studying his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.
(Jas.1:22-24)[/bible]

 

[OzSpen]

Just because that is your understanding does not mean that it is true. The context of that passage declares they were not saved that departed from the faith and you were shown that. You should be able to show from the context that they were saved. One that turns from the faith is not abiding and Jesus said His true disciples will abide in His word and you were shown that also in John 8:30-31, so it is the word of God that you disagree with.

2 Thess 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

From where do you obtain your meaning of apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3? What are your sources for understanding the etymology and thus meaning of this word? To which Greek dictionary are you referring to tell me that "Just because that is your understanding does not mean that it is true". I referred you to two Greek dictionaries, Arndt & Gingrich and Kittel. What makes this understanding wrong?

A person cannot commit apostasia (apostasy) if there was no faith from which one could fall away. The word implies Christian faith for apostasia to be possible.

Oz

 

[SeventhValley]

Jesus made a one time sacrifice for sin. (Heb. 10.12) At the very least, if you loose (or misplace) your salvation, you'll never get it back.

As a Arminian I can agree with this

 

[98cwitr]

We are not saved by physical actions ,however we are SAVED by our GOOD intentions towards the Lord and our neighbor , which at the right moment sprint into physical actions.

1)We need to Love the Lord and our neighbor to get saved.
2)To love means to have good intentions toward someone.
3)To have truly good intentions means to act upon them physically if the moment arises.


1)Support for number ONE:
[bible]37 And Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." Deut. 6:5
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18
40 On these two commandments all the Law and the Prophets hang.
(Mt.22:37-40)[/bible]

2)Support for number TWO:
[bible]20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother whom he has seen, how is he able to love God whom he has not seen?
(1Jn.4:20)[/bible]

3)Support for number THREE:
[bible]22 But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word, and not a doer, this one is like a man studying his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.
(Jas.1:22-24)[/bible]

Do you agree that someone who have to have a heart to do such things? A nature to do such things?

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry, I don't see where true believing, born again Christians can apostasize.

That seems to be your presupposition.

In this thread there have been some of us who have been presenting biblical evidence to challenge that view.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

#lose on Twitter.

What do you mean? Would you please provide the link to which you refer?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

As a Arminian I can agree with this

You replied to JM's statement, "Jesus made a one time sacrifice for sin. (Heb. 10.12) At the very least, if you loose (or misplace) your salvation, you'll never get it back."

SeventhValley, I can agree with the Arminian perspective as that is the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6,

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Oz

 

[98cwitr]

That seems to be your presupposition.

In this thread there have been some of us who have been presenting biblical evidence to challenge that view.

Oz

Matthew 18:12
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?"

Does a wandering sheep equate to an apostate sheep?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

From where do you obtain your meaning of apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3? What are your sources for understanding the etymology and thus meaning of this word? To which Greek dictionary are you referring to tell me that "Just because that is your understanding does not mean that it is true". I referred you to two Greek dictionaries, Arndt & Gingrich and Kittel. What makes this understanding wrong?

I showed you in post #22 that definition that is in the Strong's and also showed the passage from 2 Thess 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Anyone can see in v10 those that perish and why, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. God will sent them strong delusion that all might be condemned who believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. How can anyone read this and not see these are not saved people that are being talked about?
​

A person cannot commit apostasia (apostasy) if there was no faith from which one could fall away. The word implies Christian faith for apostasia to be possible.

Oz

To apostasy is to turn from what the scriptures teach and follow another means to be reconciled to God. When those in Hebrews 6 denied that Jesus was the means of salvation, they turned away from the faith, the truths of the scriptures. They were never of us or else they would have remained with us and John stated in 1 John 2:18-21 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. True disciples abide in the truth. What does this verses mean in John 8:30 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

 

[OzSpen]

Matthew 18:12
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?"

Does a wandering sheep equate to an apostate sheep?

To me that reads much like a red herring of a reply.