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iwbswiaihl2

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Brother, we are saints who continue to sin and seek God's forgiveness. That makes believers sinning saints who seek repentance and forgiveness from God - AFTER they become genuine Christians.

I find that such a view matches Scripture and my experience as an evangelical Christian in the real world - after 50 years of believing and a short time of wandering in the wilderness of sin when in my teens.


God doesn't write the Scripture (using human beings to do it) to provide us with information the way we would like it explained. The fact remains that one truly born again apostle Paul, after he was a believer, said, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture that he continued to be 'the foremost of sinners'. I stick with what the Scriptures state and not what I would like them to state.

I do wish my two friends who have committed apostasy would be able to return to repentance, but Hebrews 6:4-6 says that is not possible as "they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt" (6:6 ESV). Heb. 6:4 is adamant in its teaching on those who commit apostasy: "for it is impossible to restore again to repentance". That's not the way my limited understanding of compassion and mercy works. But that's based on the absolute justice, empathy, love and compassion of the absolutely honest Almighty God.

I have an ultimate commitment to the Lord God Almighty who revealed His will in the infallible Scriptures (in the original languages).

Oz

And with that understanding of your two friends if they were Christians before as you say, you have invented another unpardonable sin. Having stated yourself the infallibility of the scriptures you know that isn't so. You should know that all the sins of the believers were paid for at Calvary and none are charged to their account. That is why Paul wrote in Romans 4:5-8
But to him who http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1does not work but believes on Him who justifies http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn4are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

V8 the Lord does not impute, charge to their account, their sin, because He paid their sin debt. The outward man dies daily but the inward man is renewed day by day. The saints are in Christ seated in heaven in Him in their position, and one day will be there in their person. There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.


http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn5 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref3

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref4
 
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OzSpen

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iwbs,
And with that understanding of your two friends if they were Christians before as you say, you have invented another unpardonable sin. Having stated yourself the infallibility of the scriptures you know that isn't so
Please don't create a straw man fallacy out of what I wrote. I showed you clearly from Hebrews 6:4-6 that there is no possibility of repentance after apostasy.

I exegeted the infallible Scripture to come to my conclusions, so please don't accuse me of inventing another unpardonable sin. I'm totally consistent with the inerrant Scripture in my understanding.

We cannot have a rational conversation when you engage in using a logical fallacy like you did against me here.

I've being absolutely biblical in obtaining this theology from Heb. 6:4-6.

Oz
 
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Petruchio

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iwbs,

Please don't create a straw man fallacy out of what I wrote. I showed you clearly from Hebrews 6:4-6 that there is no possibility of repentance after apostasy.

This is the heresy of the Manicheans, actually, which the Latins had trouble with, and therefore they started to argue that Hebrews ought to be put out of the canon, back during the 4th century.

Obviously many Christians have "apostatized" quite severely, and yet have come back into the faith. I myself went through a very dark time in my time, a terrible time, which brought me near death. Fortunately, "all things work unto good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose."

Hebrews 6:4-6 would most likely be better applied to a man like Judas. He, with the rest of the disciples, were filled with the Spirit, and shared the Spirit’s power in casting out devils and other miracles (Mat 10:1-8). Yet, Judas was never accounted a true and regenerated believer. He was a Devil from the beginning (John 6:70), and a greedy thief on top of that (John 12:6), yet this man was still used by the Holy Spirit, despite being a “son of perdition.” So Judas tasted and partook of the Spirit, performing miracles, and yet was no true believer, but was, as the scripture in Matthew concludes, one of those whom the Lord says “I never knew you.” Not that he had been known and rendered himself unknown, but that he was never actually known at all. And that is the case with all apostates everywhere they are spoken of in the scripture. They are “never known,” or “not of us,” but never “once of us,” as you falsely believe.

I exegeted the infallible Scripture to come to my conclusions,

Your conclusions are always aimed at puffing up man, putting the power of salvation and the glory of it into his own willing and working, but we say that it is God who works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure," and that if God has "begun a good work in us," He will see it through to completion (Php 2:13, 1:6).
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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iwbs,

Please don't create a straw man fallacy out of what I wrote. I showed you clearly from Hebrews 6:4-6 that there is no possibility of repentance after apostasy.

I exegeted the infallible Scripture to come to my conclusions, so please don't accuse me of inventing another unpardonable sin. I'm totally consistent with the inerrant Scripture in my understanding.

We cannot have a rational conversation when you engage in using a logical fallacy like you did against me here.

I've being absolutely biblical in obtaining this theology from Heb. 6:4-6.

Oz

So its a straw man to quote the Lord when He said the only sin not to be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Matt 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Does this say that there is only one sin that will not be forgiven or not? If so, then your understanding of Heb 6 cannot be right if you say that a Christian can commit apostasy and not repent. The scripture of Hebrews is correct, its your interpretation that has to be wrong or isn't it. That seems not to be a strawman to me.


But I am willing to agree to disagree. Have a good night.http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean,
I do hope you mean assessment and not accessment. Accessment is not a word in my dictionary.

Also you wrote, 'Now, regarding the Hebrews passage, I'm sure your familiar with Kittles?' His name is spelled Kittel.

You knew what I meant. If your going to nit-pick, my discussion with you will end quickly.

Fair enough?

I agree with the Greek exegesis of Kittel (I have the 10 volumes of the Theological Dictionary that he co-edited with Gerhard Friedrich). Where he explained that a person who commits apostasy cannot be brought again to repentance. That's Bible.

See my detailed exposition of Hebrews 6:4-8 in ‘Once Saved, Always Saved or Once Saved, Lost Again? What you have cited from John Gill on Heb. 6:4-6 is not in agreement with the exegesis I have provided in this exposition I have provided in this link.

Funny, my research shows it completely in agreement. Even with what is laid out in The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

And though your research may differ from mine, and no, I have not read it. Gill's commentary is perfect harmony. Even with Pink's.

I wrote, 'John 10:28-29 cannot be read in isolation apart from John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6'. What did I notice in your response? You provided not one word to refute the content of John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6, which teach that eternal life is conditional. People will continue to have eternal life if they continue to believe and those who continue to remain in the vine. These verses are contrary to the view you are advocating.

You never addressed any of the other questions I posed either. So is it strange I ignore yours?

Hello pot, this is kettle.

In my understanding of the exegesis, a once saved, always saved view is not taught by these verses that require continuing belief to enter eternal life. And that is taught by John 3:16 as well, 'whoever believes' means 'whoever continues to believe' because the Greek for 'believes' is a present tense Greek participle, indicating continuining action. Thus affirming the other verses that I've cited from John that continuing/continuous believing is needed to enter eternal life.

I never argued aginst that.

However, "pisteuwn" (Jn. 3:16) is listed as "present active nominative. Which means currently believing.

pisteuwn
pisteuOn
G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m

one-BELIEVING
one-believing

So again, I disagree. Whosoever believes, at the moment of salvation.​

And unless I'm mistaken, the same word is used in Jn. 3:36:​

pisteuwn
pisteuOn

G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m
one-BELIEVING

one-believing

Which brings us back to the parable of the prodigal son. At what point, while he lived "riotous living", at what point did he cease to be his father's son?



Thus, perseverance of the saints is a much more biblical description of the biblical perspective - as I understand the Greek present tense used in the verses I have mentioned - than a once saved, always saved view (based on my understanding of the Greek grammar of the meaning of the present tense).

Here again, Once Saved, you can never be saved again. You can re-dedicate your life, but you can never be saved again.​

And as far as "perseverance" is concerned, QWho comes looking for the lost sheep?​

Who is it that chastizes us when we misbehave?​

So our "perseverance isn't up to us, God will see to it we come "back-in-line".​

In the Baptist church in which I was raised, I was taught the view you are advocating of once saved, always saved. But my examination of these Scriptures has brought me to the view I am here sharing. I take seriously the Scriptural injunction.

The NLT and the new NIV correctly translate adelphoi as brothers and sisters, based on the Greek etymology This is shown in the New Living Translation and the latest NIV. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon confirms that 'brother' as in the singular adelphos means any believer, male or female. Arndt and Gingrich note that 'Jesus calls everyone who is devoted to him brother Mt 12:50; Mk 3:25, esp. the disciples Mt 28:10; J 20:17. Hence gener. for those in such spiritual communion Mt 25:40; Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23[22:22), 17 al' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:15-16).​

So I respectfully come to a different conclusion to yours.​

Sincerely in Christ, Oz​

We come to an abrupt fork in the road. I see your point, however, I see it as dependant more on what you do, rather than what God will do.​

As I see it, your position on the vine, shows to me that you do not accept the Baptist view that has been accepted since Bapists were formed.​

The 2nd London Baptist Confession says concerning the scriptures:​

"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."​


If Jesus said no man can pluck us from the father's hand, and yet, through our disbelief, or lack thereof, we (man or woman) can take ourselves out of the Father's hand, then the scriptures are "fallible". It contains an error as the scriptures contridict themselves.​

And if it contains errors, contridicts itself, then it is not trustworthy.​

We might as well pick up a copy of "Moby Dick" and call it our "bible" as it is just as reliable.​

Now I know your gonna raise sand because I quote from an American source, and as you have said many, many times before that that does not apply to you, however, in 1833, The New hampshire Baptist Association issued their Confession and in it it says:​

without any mixture of error


So, either the scriptures are correct, and error free as no man, (not even ourselves) can take us from God's hand, or it is in error and we can take ourselves out of His hand.​

And if the later is correct, then I still believe that if one supposedly "apostasizes" then they never had true salvation to begin with and the passage dfrom 1 John 2:19 is absolutely correct.​

So we are at an impass. Either everything I do is soley dependant on God the father working through me (my belief, my fruit, etc, i.e.: Monergistic), or my salvation is completely dependant on me and what I do, not dependant on God. (man centered; Synergistic)​

God Bless​

Till all are one.​
 
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DeaconDean

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Your conclusions are always aimed at puffing up man, putting the power of salvation and the glory of it into his own willing and working, but we say that it is God who works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure," and that if God has "begun a good work in us," He will see it through to completion (Php 2:13, 1:6).

Exactly!

Amen!

A man-centered salvation!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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One of the greatest Baptist theologians wrote:

First, with Job 17:9. "The righteous also shall hold on his way; and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger". By the righteous man is meant one that is made truly righteous, by the righteousness of Christ imputed to him, and which he receives by faith; in consequence of which he lives soberly and righteously: and by his way is meant, Christ "the way"; in whom he walks as he has received him, as the Lord his Righteousness. And it is promised, he "shall hold on" in this his way; which is opposed to going back, turning aside, and standing still; if he went back, or apostatized, or turned either to the right hand or the left, or was at a full stop, he could not be said to go on; and if he goes on he must persevere; and though he meets with discouragement in the way, from sin, and Satan, and the world, yet he goes on; and though he may slip, and slide, and stumble, and even fall; yet as the traveler, when this is his case, gets up again and pursues his journey; so the believer rises again in the strength of Christ, in whom he walks, and in the exercise of faith and repentance; and still goes on his way, rejoicing in Christ his righteousness and strength; and to which his going on is owing, and not to his own conduct, power, and strength.

Secondly, another passage of scripture, proving the saints final perseverance, is in Psalm 94:14. "For the Lord will not cast off his people", &c. the Lord's people are his special and peculiar people, whom he has loved, chosen, redeemed, and called, his "foreknown people"; these he never casts off, casts out, nor casts away (Rom. 11:2), though he may seem to do so; and they may think he has, when he does not immediately arise for their help in distress; and when he withdraws his presence, or afflicts them, or suffers them to be afflicted by others, which seems to be their case in this Psalm; and for their comfort these words are said; (see Ps. 94:5, 6, 12, 13; 44:9, 23, 24; 88:14) yet, in reality, God does not cast off, at least for ever, as unbelief sometimes suggests; he never casts them off, nor casts them out from being in his sight; for they are engraven on the palms of his hands; nor from being on his heart, for they are set as a seal there; nor from a place in his house, for being sons they always abide there; and whoever casts them off, or casts out their names as evil, he never will; so far from it, that he takes the utmost delight and complacency in them; grants them nearness to himself, and expresses the strongest affection for them, and takes the greatest care of them, even as the apple of his eye: and these are his "inheritance", which he will never "forsake", though he may seem to forsake them for a little while, yet he never does, finally and totally; he has promised he will not, and he is faithful who has promised;

Fourthly, this truth will receive further proof from Jeremiah 32:40. "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them", &c. In which words are more proofs than one of the saints final perseverance. This may be concluded,

From the perpetuity of the covenant made with them; which is not a covenant of works, promising life on doing; then their perseverance would be precarious; but of grace, sovereign and free; and so is a better covenant, and established on better promises, which are absolute and unconditional, not depending on anything to be performed by them; but which runs thus, "I will", and "they shall"; a covenant "ordered in all things", not one thing wanting in it, conducive to the welfare and happiness of the saints; in all spiritual blessings, for time and eternity, in both grace and glory, which are eternally secured in it, and therefore said to be sure; its blessings are the sure mercies of David; its promises yea and amen, in Christ; and the whole is ratified and confirmed by the blood of Christ, and sure to all the spiritual seed, to all interested in it; a covenant not made with them as considered by themselves, but with Christ, as their head, and with them in him; and it is kept, and stands fast with him for evermore.

This may be confirmed from the promise made in the covenant, that God will "not turn away from them to do them good!" he may withdraw his gracious presence, and return again, which shows that he does not turn away from them for ever; he never turns from his affections to them, which are unalterably fixed on them; nor from his kind purposes concerning them; for he is in one mind, and none can turn him: nor from his gracious promises to them; for he is not a man, that he should lie or repent; but what he has said, he will do, and not alter the thing that is gone out of his lips: nor from his gifts bestowed on them, which are without repentance, and which he never revokes, or calls in again:

This is further strengthened by what follows; "I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me"; not that they shall cease to sin; every sin being, in a sense, a departure from his precepts, and his judgments (Dan. 9:5). Nor that they shall not revolt and backslide from God, to which they are prone; and which backslidings are partial departures from him; but then these do not break the relation between God and them, as of father and children, of husband and wife: and besides, he heals their backslidings, and still loves them freely (Jer. 3:14; Hosea 14:4), but they do not wickedly depart from him; as David says, (Ps. 18:22) purposely, obstinately, and with an evil intent, and finally and totally.

Sixthly, the words of Christ in his prayer to his Father, are another proof of the preservation of his people by him; and of their final perseverance through that (John 17:12). "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled"; the persons spoken of, though primarily and more immediately the apostles of Christ, yet not they only; they were not the only persons given to Christ out of the world, and who stand opposed to the world, as these do (John 17:6, 9), nor are the words spoken of them as apostles, but as given to him by an act of special grace, as united to him, members of him, and believers in him; and as such, preserved by him: and if the preservation of them as such was secured to them, by being thus given to him; why may not the preservation of all other true believers in him be equally as sure and certain? nor is this said of their preservation from a temporal death; and that this might be fulfilled, he requested what he did (John 18:8, 9), but as the other things Christ speaks of, and prays for in this chapter, are all of a spiritual kind; such as sanctification, union, eternal glory; it is most reasonable to suppose, that this was of the same kind. Besides, if preservation from temporal death is meant, the sense would be, "Those that thou gavest me I have kept" from a temporal death, "and none of them is lost" by a temporal death, "but the son of perdition", he is lost by a temporal death: which last was not true; Judas was not, at this time, lost in such sense; he had not yet betrayed Christ, and it was after his condemnation that he went and destroyed himself. To which may be added, that as Christ had kept those that were given him, he prays his Father would keep them in like manner (John 18:11);

Seventhly, when the apostle says of God (1 Cor. 1:8, 9). "Who shall confirm you to the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ; faithful is God", &c. to do it; with other passages of the same kind (1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23, 24; 2 Thess. 3:3). These are so many proofs of the saints final perseverance. The blessing itself promised and assured is confirmation, or establishment, in Christ; in faith in Christ, in the grace of faith, and in the doctrine of faith, and in holiness: the author of it is God; though ministers may be instruments of establishing the saints; God is the efficient: he has promised it; and he, as the God of all grace, is able to do it, and will; "He which establisheth us with you in Christ is God" (2 Cor. 1:21; 1 Pet. 5:10), and the duration of it is to the end; not for a short time, but to the end of life; so that such shall endure to the end, or finally persevere;

Eighthly, it is said of those who are "elect", and are "begotten again", that they "are kept by the power of God, through faith, unto salvation" (1 Pet. 1:5), they are kept in the love of God, in the covenant of grace, in the hands of Christ, and on his heart; in him, the strong hold, and on him, the foundation; in a state of grace, both of sanctification and of justification; and in the paths of truth and holiness: they are kept from Satan, not from his temptations, but from destruction by him; and from false teachers, and their errors, from being carried away with them, and finally deceived by them: and from sin, not from the indwelling of it in the hearts of believers; nor from all acts of sin in their conversation; but from the dominion, power, and tyranny of it; and from a final and total falling away through it. The means by which they are kept is, "the power of God", which is as a fortress to them, inexpugnable; where they are frouroumenoi, kept, as in a garrison, as the word signifies, and so are safe and secure; there being no might or power of men or devils, that can withstand, break through, or weaken the power of God. Likewise they are kept, "through faith", in the power of God, and in the person and grace of Christ; through faith looking to Christ, living upon him, and leaning on him; through that faith which overcomes the world, and every spiritual enemy; and through the views it has of eternal glory; and so the believer endures, as seeing what is invisible: and what they are kept unto, is "salvation"; the full possession of that salvation which Christ is the author of, and they are heirs of; and which shall be completely enjoyed in a future state; to which, and till they come into it, their perseverance is certain.

John Gill, A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, Book VI, Chapter 15: Of The Perseverance of the Saints

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Folks, earlier on, I was poked fun of because I did not supply an answer to:

You provided not one word to refute the content of John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6, which teach that eternal life is conditional.

As far as Jn. 6:47 is concerned, I see the very same thig I showed before:

pisteuwn
pisteuOn
G4100
vp Pres Act Nom Sg m
one
-BELIEVING
one-believing

Currently believing.

From another source:​

πι¦στεύ¦ω
νpee-styoo-ohn
adv: ...g
adj: a ...g one / who ...
participle present active
nominative singular masculine​

Currently believing.​

Lets look at John 15 for a minute.​

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." -Jn. 15:4-7 (KJV)​

The difference in opinion seems to arise out of the understanding of the word "abide".​

In the Greek, it is defined as:​

1) to remain, abide 1a) in reference to place 1a1) to sojourn, tarry 1a2) not to depart 1a2a) to continue to be present 1a2b) to be held, kept, continually 1b) in reference to time 1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure 1b1a) of persons, to survive, live 1c) in reference to state or condition 1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different 2) to wait for, await one


In the illustration provided, the word, and the doctrines established by Christ, are a "seed" that is planted.​

On this verse, John Gill comments:​

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,.... Abiding in Christ is here explained by his words or doctrines abiding in his disciples; by which are meant his Gospel, and the truths of it. This abides when it comes in power, and becomes the engrafted word; and may be said to do so, when such, in whose hearts it has a place, and has taken deep root, continue to have a relish and savour of it, a true and hearty affection for it, esteeming it above their necessary food; when they hold fast the profession of it, stand fast in it, steadfastly abide by it, and constantly attend on it; all which is a considerable evidence that they do, yea, there is a promise that they "shall continue in the Son and in the Father", 1Jo 2:24; The blessing and privilege that such shall enjoy is,


Building on the word "root" lets also see:

to dwell as it were within him, to be continually operative in him by his divine influence and energy, Jn. xiv. 10; Christians are said μένειν ἐν τῷ θεῷ, to be rooted as it were in him, knit to him by the spirit they have received from him, 1 Jn. ii. 6, 24, 27; iii. 6; hence one is said μένειν in Christ or in God, and conversely Christ or God is said μένειν in one: Jn. vi. 56; xv. 4 sq.; Jn. iii. 24; iv. 13, 16;

Source

Building on that premise, "root", lets turn back to Mt. 13 and read something there:​

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." -Mt. 13:5-6 (KJV)​

Why did the word not take root in them? It is answered here:​

"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." -Mt. 13: 20-21 (KJV)​

John Gill explains:​

has no heart work, and so is like to the rock in stony ground; the natural hardness of his heart continues, it remains unbroken by the word, without any true sense of sin, and repentance for it, and destitute of spiritual life, and of true faith, love, and joy: hence, as his profession is taken up in haste, immediately, upon a flash of affection, and a little head knowledge, it does not last long, nor prove honourable.
Yet hath he not root in himself,.... Nor in Christ; the word is not rooted in him, nor has he the root of the matter, or the truth of grace in him:

but dureth for a while; a hearer of the word, a professor of religion, showing some outward respect to the word, and to the preachers of it:/quote]​

Ibid

So here again, we have a class of people who appear to be "Christian" and like those who profess the works they have done in His name, but yet, the word, the Gospels, the doctrines never took root in their lives.​

Just like what Paul said to the priests in Acts, he called them "thou whited walls".​

Jesus made the same type of statement anout he scribes and lawyers saying "whited sepulchres".​

The outside may present a very clean presentation, but on the inside where it counts, they are "full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."​

Many a person has stood in the church, cried bitter tears, made a confession, and some have been baptized, just like Simon in Acts 8, but on the inside, there was no change. The word had not taken root in their souls. And that is why you see some come to church, do the above, and after a while, you never see them again. They are the ones who will cut off from the vine because they never were truly part of the vine.​

And again, I refer to John Gill:​

that is unfruitful, and is therefore taken away from the vine, and cast forth out of the vineyard. This signifies the ejection of worthless and fruitless professors out of the churches; for such who are either unsound in their principles, or are remiss and negligent in their attendance on the worship of God, with the church, or are loose and vain in their lives and conversations, are to be removed from communion with the people of God.
And is withered. Some versions, as the Arabic, Syriac, and Persic, read this as an epithet of the word "branch", thus; "the branch that is withered"; expressing the condition the branch is in before it is cast forth out of the vineyard, and the reason of its being cast forth: but others read it as a new and distinct predicate of the branch, showing the case it is in, immediately upon its being cast forth: it may be cut off, and cast out with its leaves upon it, though without fruit; but as soon as ever it is ejected, it withers away. So mere external professors of religion, when they are cast out, of the communion of the church, presently the leaf of profession, which once seemed green, decays, loses its verdure, and that seeming fruit which grew upon them shrinks to nothing, and they become "trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit", Jude 1:12: their show of life, zeal, religion, and holiness, disappears, and all their external gifts, light, knowledge, and understanding, even in a speculative way, vanish:

and men gather them; or, as some copies have it, auto, "it", which best agrees with the word "branch". This was a common thing, when branches were thrown out of a vineyard, for men to come and gather them up for an use hereafter mentioned. So when unworthy members are put out of a church of Christ, the men of the world gather them into their society: or they are taken into the congregations of false teachers, who being sensual, and without the Spirit, separate themselves; or it may be read impersonally, "they are gathered", or "it is gathered": so wicked men, and Christless professors, will be gathered by the angels at the last day, and severed by them from the righteous, whom they will place at Christ's left hand to receive their awful doom:

and cast them, or "it",


into the fire, and they are burned, or "it is burned"; for nothing else is such a branch good for; see Eze 15:2. This may respect either the gnawings of conscience, that distress of mind, if not despair, that fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which attend apostates in this life; or their being cast into the everlasting burnings of hell fire by angels at the last day, as will be the case of every unfruitful tree, of the chaff and tares.

Ibid

"The seed is the word of God." -Lk. 8:11 (KJV)

Jesus said, his word, the very same word we have today is a "seed", the same "seed" spoken of in Mt. 13; Lk. 8.​

You can only "abide" in Christ, and Him in you, if the word has taken root.​

And those who supposedly "fall away" have not the seed in them, it has not taken root in them.​

So what did they fall away from but an empty, hollow confession?​

Arthur Pink was right: "All that glitters is not gold".​

God Bless​

Till all are one.​
 
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DeaconDean

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I have always maintained that God has not now nor ever lost anybody. Scripture declares it.

Let me quote from an article, rather a 4 part lecture by S. Lewis Johnson, entitled "Once Saved, Always Saved; or The Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints".

We turn now to a biblical defense of the doctrine. In the final analysis it’s what the Bible says that really counts, is it not. And first of all, let me state it this way. The believer is secure because of the purpose of the Father. There are numerous passages that support this, but we shall concentrate on only a few. Our first passage is Romans 8:28-30 where Paul writes

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God to them who are the called according to his purpose, for whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, moreover, whom he did predestinate them he also called, and whom he called them he also justified, and whom he justified them he also glorified.”

The purpose of God mentioned in verse 28 is the cause of the divine continuing providence mentioned in the verse. While the loving of God is the human condition, for the enjoyment of the providence, the divine purpose is expounded in verses 29 and 30, and it involves five sovereign acts. The first two mentioned in verse 28, God’s foreknowledge and predestination, represent pre temporal acts, while the three mentioned in verse 30, God’s calling, justification and glorification, are temporal acts. All are grounded in him alone. The final act, seen in the word glorified, is put by Paul in past time, although it’s a future act, simply because it’s so certain to take place.

Now I want you to notice the apostle’s use of his pronouns in verse 30. This marvelous verse we want to keep before us for a few moments, “moreover whom he did predestinate them he also called and whom he called them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Now that marvelous text has an interesting teaching. Notice the pronouns then, “whom he called, them he justified.” Now in the previous statement he has said, “moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called.” Was anyone lost in the process of moving from predestination to calling? Then there follows the text, “whom he called, them he justified” which I just cited. Was anyone lost in the process of calling and justification? And finally, Paul concludes with, “and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” A glorification so certain that Paul writes, “glorified” not will glorify, but “glorified,” so certain that he puts it in past time. Is anyone lost in the process then, “whom he justified, them he also glorified.” In other words, the divine purpose accomplished in five great sovereign acts is certain to reach its goal for every believer foreknown in ages past by God. Not a single one is lost, nor can be lost.

How can we then say that it is possible for a called and justified believer in Christ to lose his salvation? It is an impossibility, for our salvation is grounded in the eternal purpose of God.

The entire four part article can be downloaded here.

And like it says here:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Source

Christians cannot lose their "eternal life".

Oh yes, we may backslide, sin, bring shame on Jesus and His church, and bring temporal judgements on ourselves, yet not one will be lost.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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Your conclusions are always aimed at puffing up man, putting the power of salvation and the glory of it into his own willing and working, but we say that it is God who works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure," and that if God has "begun a good work in us," He will see it through to completion (Php 2:13, 1:6).
I beg your pardon!:bow:
 
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OzSpen

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DeaconDean
And like it says here:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
Like John 3:36 says: Whoever continues to believe in the Son continues to have eternal life.
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean

That is right, I quoted from the Abstract of Principles, written in 1858 by James Petigru Boyce.

Like John 3:36 says: Whoever continues to believe in the Son continues to have eternal life.

"ὁ πι¦στεύ¦ων εἰς τὸν υἱ¦ὸν ἔ¦χει ζω¦ὴν αἰ¦ώ¦νι¦ον· ὁ δὲ ἀ¦πει¦θῶν τῷ υἱ¦ῷ οὐκ ὄψ¦ε¦ται ζω¦ήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀρ¦γὴ τοῦ θε¦οῦ μέ¦νει ἐπ’ αὐ¦τόν. -Jn. 3:36

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

According to this:

πι¦στεύ¦ων pee-styoo-ohn adv: ...g adj: a ...g one / who ...participle present active nominative singular masculine

It says the one who is currently believing.

Geez man.

There is the proof.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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That is right, I quoted from the Abstract of Principles, written in 1858 by James Petigru Boyce.

"ὁ πι¦στεύ¦ων εἰς τὸν υἱ¦ὸν ἔ¦χει ζω¦ὴν αἰ¦ώ¦νι¦ον· ὁ δὲ ἀ¦πει¦θῶν τῷ υἱ¦ῷ οὐκ ὄψ¦ε¦ται ζω¦ήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀρ¦γὴ τοῦ θε¦οῦ μέ¦νει ἐπ’ αὐ¦τόν. -Jn. 3:36

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

According to this:

πι¦στεύ¦ων pee-styoo-ohn adv: ...g adj: a ...g one / who ...participle present active nominative singular masculine

It says the one who is currently believing.

Geez man.

There is the proof.

God Bless

Till all are one.
It says the one who is continuing to believe, continues to have eternal life- that's the meaning of the Greek present tense.

Didn't you believe that I knew the parsing and meaning of the Greek present tense?

So, eternal security is based on the fact that a person continues to believe in Jesus. It is not a once saved, always saved view, but a perseverance of the saints view - the saints are those who continue to believe. They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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It says the one who is continuing to believe, continues to have eternal life- that's the meaning of the Greek present tense.

Currently believing.

As shown above.

Didn't you believe that I knew the parsing and meaning of the Greek present tense?

Never said you didn't.

So, eternal security is based on the fact that a person continues to believe in Jesus.

Again, the man-centered salvation so prevelant in synergism and Arminianism. That which you so proudly taunt.

It is not a once saved, always saved view,

I have shown otherwise.

]quote]but a perseverance of the saints view - the saints are those who continue to believe.[/quote]

So it is impossible for one to backslide, and yet still believe in God?

That is the point I take away from all your posts.

They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).

Oz

No, according to scripture, 1 Jn. 2:19, if they depart, stop beliving, they never believed in the first place.

Unless you are calling the Apostle John a liar.

Are you?

And from Jesus' own mouth, no man, not even yourself can take yourself out of God's hand. That is, unless Jesus was lying?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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And you really should go back and read K-I-T-T-E-L (did I spell it correct for you?)

You really should go back and read what is said on the Johannine wittings concerning:

IV. pisteuw in John

1. pisteuw as Acceptance of the Message

2. pisteuw eiV and pisteuw with the Dative

Here, I'll help.

Volume VI, p. 222

Do you believe the message about the Savior?

Yes, only once.

Do you believe He is who He says He is?

Yes, only once.

You may backslide, and have to confess your sins, and ask forgiveness, but you were saved when you said yes to the above, and you can't do it again.

You can rededicate your life, but you can't be born again, lose that, (salvation and eternal life) and be born again again.

Sorry, it don't work that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Also, you might also want to refresh yourself with K-I-T-T-E-L, (did I spell it correct enough for you, ya'll know how us southern redneck hillbillies er) Volume IV, page 576.

By the use of "menien" Jn. seeks to express the immutability and inviolability of the relation of immenance...Thus God abides in Christ (14:10. Believers abide in Christ 6:56; 15:4-7; 1 Jn. 2:6, 27f; 3:6, 24) and Christ in them (Jn. 15:4-7; 1 Jn. 3:24. God abides in believers (1 Jn. 4:16), and believers in God ( 1 Jn. 2:24; 4:16)...After the anology of the personal statement Jn. uses "menein en" for the abiding of the life, 1 Jn. 3:15; love, 1 Jn. 3:17; truth, 2 Jn. 2; anointing, 1 Jn. 2:27. Believers abide in divine things, e.g., God's Word in Jn. 5:38; love, Jn. 15:9, 10; light, 1 Jn. 2:10; doctrine, 2 Jn. 9. Here again the relationship of salvation is both enduring and present.

So using your standard, we must therefore conclude that since both Peter and Paul sinned willingly, not once, not twice, but at least three times, they lost their salvation, and thusly were not able to "renew them unto repentance".

But tell me, when Peter and Paul both sinned, did they cease to "abide" in Christ?

Did they cease to "believe" continuously?

Remember, you can "commit apostasy and perish by a willful act of their own."

Who said that?

Was it me?

Hum...

Which bring us right back to the Prodigal Son. At what point did he cease to abide, or believe, or be his father's son, while out in a "riotous living"?

Scriptures, rather Jesus, never said that he did.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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DeaconDean,

I wrote:
They are not those who once believed and gave up believing? The only guarantee of eternal life is for those who are continuing to believe at the time of death (or at the time of Christ's second coming if it arrives before the believer dies).
Your response:
No, according to scripture, 1 Jn. 2:19, if they depart, stop beliving, they never believed in the first place. Unless you are calling the Apostle John a liar. Are you? And from Jesus' own mouth, no man, not even yourself can take yourself out of God's hand. That is, unless Jesus was lying?
To what is 1 John 2:19 refer? It states:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us (ESV)
What's the context? 1 Jn 2:18 states,
Children, it is the last hour, as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour (ESV).
It is talking about antichrists in our midst.

That is not the discussion point that I'm addressing I'm talking about people who formerly continued to believe in Jesus and were committed evangelical Christians for a considerable time and who gave up believing in Jesus. They committed apostasy. But you are wanting that to mean that they never believed in the first place. I disagree profoundly! These people did continue to believe for a time and showed fruits of repentance. But then they quit believing (often related to circumstances in their life that left a big negative impact).

The warning to the children of God in 1 John 2 (the chapter to which you refer) is:
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him (1 John 2:28-29 ESV)
From these two verses, we know that:
* 'abide' = menete = Greek present tense verb, which means continuing action, i.e. 'continues to abide';

* 'everyone who practices righteousness', where 'practices' = poiwn (doing) = Greek present tense participle which indicates continuing action, the meaning of which is, 'who continues doing/practising'.

Verse 29 is clear that the children of God (based on v. 28) are those who continue to do/practice righteousness. It is not dealing with those Christians who used to do righteousness.

I am not finding our conversation profitable as you have a presupposition of once saved, always saved, and no matter what I exegete from the Greek text about the continuing action of the Greek verbs, it doesn't make a difference to our conversation.

Bye!

In Christ, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Also, you might also want to refresh yourself with K-I-T-T-E-L, (did I spell it correct enough for you, ya'll know how us southern redneck hillbillies er) Volume IV, page 576.

So using your standard, we must therefore conclude that since both Peter and Paul sinned willingly, not once, not twice, but at least three times, they lost their salvation, and thusly were not able to "renew them unto repentance".
It is obvious that you don't like correction with your spelling.

I have never said that sinning willingly means apostasy. So you have created a straw man logical fallacy against my views with your example of Peter and Paul. We cannot have a rational conversation when you do this.

Bye, Oz
 
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P

Petruchio

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It is talking about antichrists in our midst.

That is not the discussion point that I'm addressing I'm talking about people who formerly continued to believe in Jesus and were committed evangelical Christians for a considerable time and who gave up believing in Jesus. They committed apostasy.

This is a pretty desperate and contradictory reply, in my opinion. What do you think an Anti-Christ even is? Is it just that little kid from The Omen? Do you know the definition?

1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

An antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. IOW, that is what all apostates do, if not always in word, but in action. Continue with the verse in question:

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
(1Jn 2:18-19)

Obviously, these people were members of the church "they went out from us," but they "were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:" They had continued for a time with the church, had been its members and fellow travellers; however, they were never "of us" from the very beginning. They were not true and regenerated believers, though they appeared to be. Had they been, "they would have continued with us." Thus our position is utterly confirmed.

This is the same theme in Matthew, wherein the false believers crying "Lord, Lord," are cast off, because God "never knew" them, despite their belief that they had believed in the Lord and served Him.

I am not finding our conversation profitable

The problem is on your end, since you do not submit to the scriptures, but only wrest a few to annoy the saints.
 
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OzSpen

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Petruchio,

I submit to the infallible Scriptures, but not your interpretation of them.

Oz

This is a pretty desperate and contradictory reply, in my opinion. What do you think an Anti-Christ even is? Is it just that little kid from The Omen? Do you know the definition?

1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

An antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. IOW, that is what all apostates do, if not always in word, but in action. Continue with the verse in question:

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
(1Jn 2:18-19)

Obviously, these people were members of the church "they went out from us," but they "were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:" They had continued for a time with the church, had been its members and fellow travellers; however, they were never "of us" from the very beginning. They were not true and regenerated believers, though they appeared to be. Had they been, "they would have continued with us." Thus our position is utterly confirmed.

This is the same theme in Matthew, wherein the false believers crying "Lord, Lord," are cast off, because God "never knew" them, despite their belief that they had believed in the Lord and served Him.



The problem is on your end, since you do not submit to the scriptures, but only wrest a few to annoy the saints.
 
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