Eternal Security
- Thread starter lismore
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I didn't read through this whole thread because there are too much pages, so someone may have already brought this up, but how about James 5:19-20? I just read it today:
"19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
It says that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Which means the person, who wandered from the truth (meaning he had truth before), was on his way to losing his soul.
I can't think of any other explanation...
"19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
It says that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Which means the person, who wandered from the truth (meaning he had truth before), was on his way to losing his soul.
I can't think of any other explanation...
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I can, he is not talking about a Christian, but one who needs to be converted just as the scripture says, James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Just as James used the word in James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Throughout all of scripture you will not find the Holy Spirit inspiring the saints to be addressed as sinners. The sinners are always lost, separated from God in need of being saved. Check for yourself, here are several to demonstrate the point; Pro 11:31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the ungodly and the sinner.
Pro 13:6 Righteousness guards him whose way is blameless, But wickedness overthrows the sinner. Matt 9:13 But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
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But the verse says "if any wanders from the truth", implying that they once had truth. You cannot wander away from a place you were never at.
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OzSpen
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iwb,
The problem I see with your interpretation is that it is talking about Christian. Take a read of the first 4 verses of the book:
One warning of the danger of believers falling away would be enough to refute absolute eternal security. But we have it in passages such as 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; James 5:20. It's too late to try to convince me of eternal security as these verses refute such a view.
Oz
The problem I see with your interpretation is that it is talking about Christian. Take a read of the first 4 verses of the book:
This book is addressed to brothers and sisters in Christ. this is also affirmed in the verses before 5:20, James 5:19 which reads
It is straining at a gnat to try to make this refer to the non-converted. The context of the whole book of James and 5:19 refutes that view.
One warning of the danger of believers falling away would be enough to refute absolute eternal security. But we have it in passages such as 2 Thess 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:19; Heb 6:4-6; James 5:20. It's too late to try to convince me of eternal security as these verses refute such a view.
Oz
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That would depend on the place that the context is talking about. If they are those in their midst that have heard the good news and have not received it into their hearts, they had the truth presented unto them but they wander away from that truth by refusing to apply it. Besides that, how about all those verses I showed you where only the lost are called sinners and James using the same phrase earlier talking about getting saved. The scripture cannot be right in one place and be wrong in another, they must walk hand in hand. I can agree to disagree.
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The gnat may have went into your eye and blurred it making you missed this in chapter 1:26-27 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
James 4:4-6 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” Just as John wrote about those who love the world 1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
You too avoid showing anywhere in scripture where one called a sinner is not an unsaved person, is that an oversight, or couldn't examples be found?
That is your opinion of believers falling away not what the passage makes clear, nor does it walk hand in hand with the teachings of the scripture. I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads. And I am not trying to convince you of eternal security at all, if scripture is enough, I know that nothing I can say would accomplish what the word has failed to do. My duty is simply to show what scripture says and that I have done, the ball is in your court as they say. Each tub sits on it's own bottom.
This added later, not John 8:30 but 8:31
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Well, what does it mean when God says: “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity?” (Mat 7:23). This same theme of “not knowing them” as the elect of God is taken up elsewhere by John, who speaks of Apostates as “not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us”(1Jn 2:19). Again, when speaking of the horrors that would come upon the world, Christ says: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Mat 24:24), obviously intimating that it is impossible for the elect to be fatally deceived. While it is possible for a Christian at times to be forsaken by God, for the purpose of teaching him humility, yet, as Paul declares, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God," and to this the Apostle immediately adds, "to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom 8:28), lest anything think that it is by the power of man that we are preserved. Again, in yet another place, the Apostle declares: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6). Thus no apostate is of the elect, but are, in fact, infiltrators who must at some point be expelled. And all those who are the sheep of God can never be finally lost. Or as Augustine puts it,
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of “all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none.” John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, “They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us.” John 2:19. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 33)
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In all honesty I'm not exactly sure what I believe... I'm still trying to figure all these things out. I brought those verses up because I read them recently and they seemed to point to losing salvation and then I saw this thread on here. I see what you're saying about the sinner thing but as oz said, unChristians don't seem to fit into the context...
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DeaconDean
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Let me put it another way.
Jesus said:
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -John 10:29 (KJV)
If sin, causes you to come out of the Father's hand, if you, choosing to sin, takes you out of the Father's hand, and costs you your salvation, then God ceases to omnipotent (all powerful). Sin, and man (namely you) are able to overpower and take yourself from His care.
Now which is corect?
No man, not even yourself can take you out of God's hand, or is sin and man more powerful than God?
Either Jesus and scriptures are correct, or Jesus told a lie and subsequently the scriptures lie also, which means sin and man are more powerful than God.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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The problem is: in this church age, once you are saved by God, there is no way YOU can unsave yourself no matter what you do.
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DeaconDean
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OzSpen
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iwb,
I do not avoid calling saints sinners.
This writer has summarised some biblical material to show that ....
As for John 8:30, you wrote, ' I have shown you several times John 8:30 and again, you overlook it and respond not as to what it means if it doesn't mean exactly like it reads'.
What on earth are you talking about? John 8:30 states, 'As he was saying these things, many believed in him'. What has that to do with eternal security as the 'believed' is in the aorist tense and thus speaks of a point action time in the past? How does that affirm eternal security?
Oz
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DeaconDean
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Another inherant problem with the thought that once saved, you can be unsaved, or lose your eternal life.
Merriam-Webster defines "hypocrasy" as:
Source
In Matthew 23, three times Jesus is recorded as calling the Pharisees "hypocrites". (vs. 13-15)
So from Jesus' own words, we see that "hypocrasy' is a sin.
In fact, Paul writes in great detail on this:
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things...Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?" -Rom. 2:2, 17-23 (KJV)
Those spoken of in Mt. 7:21-23 are hypocrites.
They boast of the works they did in his name, and yet, they were never known to Jesus as one of His own.
So, having established "hypocrasy" is a sin, Paul, confronts Peter in Galatia saying that Peter was guilty of "hypocrasy"
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." -Gal. 2:11 (KJV)
The Greek word here is "kataginwskw" (kat-ag-in-o'-sko) which means:
Source
And this was not the first time Peter sinned, for in Acts 10, it is recorded that Peter, when told by God to do something, disobeyed.
Show me in scriptures, Peter's repentance for his sins.
I have no doubt that he did repent. But the point is, at what point did Peter lose his salvation because he sinned?
And the important part is that "hypocrasy" is a willful sin.
Saying that one can lose their salvation, we have no recourse than to say Peter lost his, and yet, there is no repentance recorded, and yet Peter was still at the First Apostolic Council held in Jerusalem after the Galatia incident. And yet we have Peter's epistles included in the canon of scripture.
So when did Peter lose his salvation, and since he once walked, talked, and was taught by God Himself, was "enlightened" where is it recorded that he was "rewed again unto repentance"?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Merriam-Webster defines "hypocrasy" as:
Source
In Matthew 23, three times Jesus is recorded as calling the Pharisees "hypocrites". (vs. 13-15)
So from Jesus' own words, we see that "hypocrasy' is a sin.
In fact, Paul writes in great detail on this:
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things...Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?" -Rom. 2:2, 17-23 (KJV)
Those spoken of in Mt. 7:21-23 are hypocrites.
They boast of the works they did in his name, and yet, they were never known to Jesus as one of His own.
So, having established "hypocrasy" is a sin, Paul, confronts Peter in Galatia saying that Peter was guilty of "hypocrasy"
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." -Gal. 2:11 (KJV)
The Greek word here is "kataginwskw" (kat-ag-in-o'-sko) which means:
Source
And this was not the first time Peter sinned, for in Acts 10, it is recorded that Peter, when told by God to do something, disobeyed.
Show me in scriptures, Peter's repentance for his sins.
I have no doubt that he did repent. But the point is, at what point did Peter lose his salvation because he sinned?
And the important part is that "hypocrasy" is a willful sin.
Saying that one can lose their salvation, we have no recourse than to say Peter lost his, and yet, there is no repentance recorded, and yet Peter was still at the First Apostolic Council held in Jerusalem after the Galatia incident. And yet we have Peter's epistles included in the canon of scripture.
So when did Peter lose his salvation, and since he once walked, talked, and was taught by God Himself, was "enlightened" where is it recorded that he was "rewed again unto repentance"?
God Bless
Till all are one.
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DeaconDean
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Another point.
Sin, whether willful or out of ignorance, is still sin.
Scriptures record that Paul, writer of 66% of the New Testament, sinned at least three times after the point of salvation.
Near the end of Paul's missionary journies, he was bound and determined to go to Jerusalem.
At Tyre, Paul was greeted by "disciples" "who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem." -Acts 21:4 (KJV)
Later on, he was confronted by "a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem." (vs. 10-12 (KJV)
Now you can debate as to whether or not the word "spirit" here means the Holy Spirit" or not. I'm inclined to think it was since their prophesies came true.
Twice Paul was told not to go to Jerusalem and yet Paul made a willful decision, disobeyed the Holy Spirit and went to Jerusalem.
Later on while in Jerusalem, it is recorded:
"Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people." -Acts 23:3-5 (KJV)
Paul, a Pharisee, who knew the Law forwards and backwards, better than any of the other disciples, "brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel" almost as well as the Lord who gave them, sinned in reviling the High Priest.
So tell me at what point did Paul lose his salvation?
Just because one makes a confession, claims to be a "Christian" and then falls away, does not mean they apostasized.
"All is not gold that glitters".
The parable of the Sower proves this.
Matthew 7 proves this.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 John 2:19 (KJV)
How many disciples did Jesus have? Don't know, but I do know that it is recorded:
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." -Jn. 6:66 (KJV)
Why is that?
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
They may have had a "head knowledge" of Jesus, but they did not have a "heart knowledge" of Jesus.
Jesus said that He would leave the 99 and go hunt for the one that strayed. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit never has, nor never will, ever lose one of their own.
This is confirmed in Hebrews.
WHen you acted up, and your fathers spanked you for your transgressions, God will do the same. (Heb. 12:5-11)
But there are those here in this thread who believe God can lose the 100th sheep.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Sin, whether willful or out of ignorance, is still sin.
Scriptures record that Paul, writer of 66% of the New Testament, sinned at least three times after the point of salvation.
Near the end of Paul's missionary journies, he was bound and determined to go to Jerusalem.
At Tyre, Paul was greeted by "disciples" "who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem." -Acts 21:4 (KJV)
Later on, he was confronted by "a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem." (vs. 10-12 (KJV)
Now you can debate as to whether or not the word "spirit" here means the Holy Spirit" or not. I'm inclined to think it was since their prophesies came true.
Twice Paul was told not to go to Jerusalem and yet Paul made a willful decision, disobeyed the Holy Spirit and went to Jerusalem.
Later on while in Jerusalem, it is recorded:
"Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people." -Acts 23:3-5 (KJV)
Paul, a Pharisee, who knew the Law forwards and backwards, better than any of the other disciples, "brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel" almost as well as the Lord who gave them, sinned in reviling the High Priest.
So tell me at what point did Paul lose his salvation?
Just because one makes a confession, claims to be a "Christian" and then falls away, does not mean they apostasized.
"All is not gold that glitters".
The parable of the Sower proves this.
Matthew 7 proves this.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 John 2:19 (KJV)
How many disciples did Jesus have? Don't know, but I do know that it is recorded:
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." -Jn. 6:66 (KJV)
Why is that?
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
They may have had a "head knowledge" of Jesus, but they did not have a "heart knowledge" of Jesus.
Jesus said that He would leave the 99 and go hunt for the one that strayed. Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit never has, nor never will, ever lose one of their own.
This is confirmed in Hebrews.
WHen you acted up, and your fathers spanked you for your transgressions, God will do the same. (Heb. 12:5-11)
But there are those here in this thread who believe God can lose the 100th sheep.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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OzSpen
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Dean,
This is what happens when you read John 10:28-29 in isolation from the rest of John's Gospel. It is true that 'I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.... no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand'.
BUT this is what can happen. Take a read of John 15:6. This is in the context of being in the vine - God's vine - and his is the vinedresser (15:1). This is what John 15:6 states,
The gracious power of God is comprehensively sufficient to protect every born-again Christian believer forever. But a believer can in the end be lost, because salvation is conditional. None of our enemies will be able to snatch us out of the Father's/Jesus' hands.
BUT ... BUT, any Christian can turn from Jesus, enter into disbelief, commit apostasy and perish by a wilful act of their own. That's what John 15:6 teaches.
Therefore, John 10:28-29 is not an absolute that guarantees once-saved-always-saved (not biblical language). Eternal life is granted to those who continue to believe. We know this from verses in John such as John 3:35; 6:47,
Thus, eternal life only continues as long as a person continues to believe. He or she can commit apostasy by not continuing to believe in Christ for eternal life.
I know people for whom this has happened and is continuing to happen - apostasy - and they were once vibrant Christians.
John 10:28-29 cannot be read in isolation apart from John 3:36; 6:47 and 15:6.
I have to be honest with what the text says, based on the tenses of the original language.
I do not think that you will like this kind of news (and it shoudn't be new news for you), but that is what the texts say.
And have a guess what? 1 Timothy 1:19 and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirm that this can happen. People can continue to believe or to discontinue to belief. They then move from eternal life to eternal damnation. That's how I see the Bible unfolding.
I have to be honest with the biblical text and in this case, with John's Gospel.
In Christ, Oz
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DeaconDean
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Ok, so we have no recourse than to say both Peter and Paul died without salvation. Afterall: "commit apostasy and perish by a willful act of their own". And that is exactly what they did!
On John 10:28, John Gill comments:
Source
Now, regarding the Hebrews passage, I'm sure your familiar with Kittles?
Source
THeological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffery W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi. Copyright 1974, Volume IX, p. 355
So when I quoted Arthur W. Pink, saying:
He was correct for we nothing which indicates whomever the writer is speaking of ever being brought to "saving faith". And he gives Balaam as one example.
Simon, in Acts * is another example. Yes he apparently made a confession, and yes, he was baptized, but he also had not received any illunination.
Can a person who is born again, baptized be "thy heart is not right in the sight of God."? Or: "in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."?
No sir. So your arguement on "enlightened" does not hold water.
Furthermore, in this thread, it has been clearly stated that one you lose your salvation, that's it.
In Hebrews 6:6, the Greek word used there "anakainizw" simply means that once you've been born again, it cannot happen again.
THeological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1965, Volume III, p. 451
And yet, Gill also points out:
Source
So I respectfully disagree with your accessment.
God Bless
TIll all are one.
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