Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

[Der Alte]

There is no "hell no" variety of UR other than in your mind. Univeralists posit a "hell" (but they don't use the actual word "hell" because this is derived from the Norse word "hel". Scripture instead talks about Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and Tartarus none of which mean "Hel" as a place of eternal punishment).
So UR talks about "hell", if you like, as a place of "pruning" or "corrective punishment" which is its true meaning and which is in keeping with the image of God in Christ. As opposed to a place of eternal torture which is not consistent with Jesus. Yet you know this but keep using the Norse word... What's your stumbling block here (he asks with the incredulity of an innocent five-year-old)?

Let me illustrate the absurdity of this argument. How many words in the English language might be etymologically traced back to a similar word in Norse, or any other Scandinavian country language? How many such words should we now reject?
When we see/hear the English word "truck" we usually think of a large boxy vehicle used for hauling large, heavy loads.
The word "truck" originally meant vegetables, over time it came to mean what it does today. That the word "truck" originally meant "vegetables" is irrelevant. Nobody today thinks about broccoli when they hear the word "truck."
The Greek word "kolasis" does not now and has never meant prune/correct. I can't find a word in the BDAG Greek lexicon with similar spelling which means "prune" or "correct."
The word corrected occurs one time in the N.T. Heb 12:9 παιδευτὰς/paideutas. Unfortunately, the Greek word is not kolasis.
The word correction occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσιν́/epanorthosin' correction. Unfortunately, the Greek word is not kolasis.
There is no credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence that a Greek word similar to kolasis ever meant prune or correct.

 

[Jonaitis]

I think it would be interesting to get a sense of where CFers stand on this issue.

Eternal Damnation - some (many) will suffer eternal torment/separation from God and some will be given everlasting life

Conditional Immortality - some ( many) will be annihilated and some will be given everlasting life

Universal Reconciliation - all will eventually be reconciled to God in Christ

Agnostic - not committed to any of the three options above

I am assuming any who are "hopeful universalists" are basically in the agnostic camp.

For myself, I was agnostic for a long time while arguing that UR was the most likely position, having the better arguments on its side. Eventually, I have come to embrace UR. I do believe that some will suffer terribly, some not as much, and others will experience great joy as we all enter the unmitigated presence of God. To be in Christ is to be conformed to his image and prepared for the unmitigated presence of God who is an unquenchable fire that purifies us of all dross. Eventually, at the end of the ages, God will be all in all. As Origen said, either we are baptized by water in this life or fire in the next.

At any rate, please vote so that we can see what folks on CF believe. I have left voting anonymous so that everyone can vote their conscience without feeling compelled to defend their position. I'm hoping most everyone will vote so we can get a good sense of the group. But feel free to engage in lively but lovely discussion below. I've said my piece (many times over) so I'll turn it over to y'all. God bless us all.

I think similar of something between eternal condemnation and universal reconciliation, but not quite agnostic.

A person could theoretically suffer eternal condemnation, but truly all persons are ultimately meant to be reconciled. I'm not quite sure on that, so this is just something I am working out.

 

[Hmm]

Let me illustrate the absurdity of this argument. How many words in the English language might be etymologically traced back to a similar word in Norse, or any other Scandinavian country language? How many such words should we now reject?
When we see/hear the English word "truck" we usually think of a large boxy vehicle used for hauling large, heavy loads.
The word "truck" originally meant vegetables, over time it came to mean what it does today. That the word "truck" originally meant "vegetables" is irrelevant. Nobody today thinks about broccoli when they hear the word "truck."
The Greek word "kolasis" does not now and has never meant prune/correct. I can't find a word in the BDAG Greek lexicon with similar spelling which means "prune" or "correct."
The word corrected occurs one time in the N.T. Heb 12:9 παιδευτὰς/paideutas. Unfortunately, the Greek word is not kolasis.
The word correction occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσιν́/epanorthosin' correction. Unfortunately, the Greek word is not kolasis.
There is no credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence that a Greek word similar to kolasis ever meant prune or correct.

I have no truck with this argument DA.

 

[public hermit]

I think similar of something between eternal condemnation and universal reconciliation, but not quite agnostic.

A person could theoretically suffer eternal condemnation, but truly all persons are ultimately meant to be reconciled. I'm not quite sure on that, so this is just something I am working out.

Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and voting (I'm assuming you did).

 

[Jonaitis]

Thank you. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and voting (I'm assuming you did).

There doesn't seem to be a multiple voting option.

 

[Der Alte]

I have no truck with this argument DA.

My paternal grandmother often us "truck" to mean dealing/interaction. She was born in the 19th century.

 

[public hermit]

There is no credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence that a Greek word similar to kolasis ever meant prune or correct

Good grief. That's simply not true.

Liddell-Scott: chastisement, correction, punishment, Plato, etc.

Thayer: correction, punishment, penalty...Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus.

The word only occurs twice in the NT, so you have to look at extra biblical sources, which do use it as a word meaning correction.

Aristotle specifically differentiates between kolasis and timoria defining the first as corrective and the latter as strictly penal punishment, pace Thayer.

 

[public hermit]

There doesn't seem to be a multiple voting option.

I just changed it. I didn't foresee the need, but nuance is welcomed.

 

[Hmm]

There is no credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence that a Greek word similar to kolasis ever meant prune or correct.

Oh yeah?!!!

"The word κολασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.” Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρια (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only. Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind; but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity. The verbal form, κολαζω (kolazō) appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment]. (David Bentley Hart, The New Testament: A Translation [New Haven: Yale University Press, 2017], 53 n. w)

 

[Der Alte]

Good grief. That's simply not true.
Liddell-Scott: chastisement, correction, punishment, Plato, etc.
Thayer: correction, punishment, penalty...Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus.
The word only occurs twice in the NT, so you have to look at extra biblical sources, which do use it as a word meaning correction.
Aristotle specifically differentiates between kolasis and timoria defining the first as corrective and the latter as strictly penal punishment, pace Thayer.

Brief snippets copy/pasted from anonymous web sites hardly qualify as evidence of anything.
Here is the full definition of kolasis from Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich Greek lexicon. Which represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. The 80+ sources the authors consulted to determine the correct definition highlighted in blue.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; (Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]

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[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 555.​

 

[Hmm]

My paternal grandmother often us "truck" to mean dealing/interaction. She was born in the 19th century.

Google just told me this:

This 'truck' is the early French word 'troque', which meant 'an exchange; a barter' and came into Middle English as 'truke'. The first known record of truke is the Vintner's Company Charter in the Anglo-Norman text of the Patent Roll of Edward III, 1364. This relates to a transaction for some wine which was to be done 'by truke, or by exchange'.

So, to 'have truck with' was to barter or do business' with. In the 17th century and onward, the meaning of 'truck' was extended to include 'association'/'communication' and 'to have truck with' then came to mean 'commune with'.

'Truck' is now usually only heard in the negative and this usage began in the 19th century. To 'have no truck with' came to be a general term for 'have nothing to do with'. An example of that is cited in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1834:

Theoretically an officer should have no truck with thieves.

 

[Hmm]

Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich

A good name for a company of solicitors!

 

[public hermit]

Brief snippets copy/pasted from anonymous web sites hardly qualify as evidence of anything.
Here is the full definition of kolasis from Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich Greek lexicon. Which represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship. The 80+ sources the authors consulted to determine the correct definition highlighted in blue.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)​

① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.​

② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; (Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]​

​

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[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 555.​

Those are both legitimate lexicons that I have before me because I do know Greek and use them regularly. I can't copy and paste like you, but anyone can check and see if I'm lying. Reject them if you will, but you're wrong. It's as simple as that.

 

[Saint Steven]

New topic to check out.

Is free-will ever really an informed choice? IDK

 

[Fervent]

Do you have a source for this?

I'd have to dig through my readings again to show it, but where it is most explicit is within Maximus the Confessor. It mostly stems from differences between the ancients who primarily thought in platonic terms for issues like what a "substance" is and our modern conceptions being more atomistic. So I don't have someone saying its their opinion, it comes from actually reading the works. Someone worth reading on Gregory of Nyssa who shows that he didn't deny hell's eternality is Metropolitan Hierotheos.

 

[Der Alte]

"The word κολασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.” Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρια (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only. Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind; but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity. The verbal form, κολαζω (kolazō) appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment]. (David Bentley Hart, The New Testament: A Translation [New Haven: Yale University Press, 2017], 53 n. w)

"The word κολασις (kolasis) originally meant “pruning” or “docking” or “obviating the growth” of trees or other plants, and then came to mean “confinement,” “being held in check,” “punishment,” or “chastisement,” chiefly with the connotation of “correction.”​

No, zero, none, evidence to support this claim.

"Classically, the word was distinguished (by Aristotle, for instance) from τιμωρια (timōria), which means a retributive punishment only."​

No, zero, none, evidence to support this claim! Just because some scholar said it doesn't make it so.

"Whether such a distinction holds here is difficult to say, since by late antiquity kolasis seems to have been used by many to describe punishment of any kind;"​

Punishment of any kind!

"but the only other use of the noun in the New Testament is in 1 John 4:18, where it refers not to retributive punishment, but to the suffering experienced by someone who is subject to fear because not yet perfected in charity."​

+++​

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible?

"The verbal form, κολαζω (kolazō) appears twice: in Acts 4:21, where it clearly refers only to disciplinary punishment, and in 2 Peter 2:9 in reference to fallen angels and unrighteous men, where it probably means being held in check” or “penned in” [until the day of judgment]. (David Bentley Hart, The New Testament: A Translation [New Haven: Yale University Press, 2017], 53 n. w)​

Acts 4:21 where it clearly refers to disciplinary punishment. Probably means something else.

 

[Fervent]

But what does this mean!!! Let's assume that I am wicked. I know, I know, it's hard to believe, but let's just pretend. So when I die my will enters a state of non-being. Okay... but then "my humanity" returns to Christ... What does this mean!!!

You'd leave me not knowing whether I was saved or lost but certainly knowing that I was confused. Please don't leave me this way Fervent.

Its a difficult thing to understand from modern conceptions that don't recognize a "human substance," but essentially your will, or ego, or whatever you want to call "you" would go to hell, while being stripped of everything that was good within you. So you'd become a pure malignancy, and that malignancy would enter a state of non-being.

This seems to be a repetition of your first point.

It was meant as a summary, so yes.

I assume it's because of typos but this doesn't make sense.

The hope is that all submit to Christ, but whether all willingly submit or not everything good will be restored. apokatastasis does not (necessarily) entail universal salvation, the distortion of it that did was expressly anathematized(and by extension, perhaps by mistake, Origen was included/blamed for that anathematization.)

 

[Der Alte]

Those are both legitimate lexicons that I have before me because I do know Greek and use them regularly. I can't copy and paste like you, but anyone can check and see if I'm lying. Reject them if you will, but you're wrong. It's as simple as that.

If you are using an IPhone I'll tell you how to copy/paste.

 

[Der Alte]

A good name for a company of solicitors!

Not solicitors. Greek scholars.

 

[Jipsah]

The word "kolasis" does not now and has never meant prune!

Eternal punishment still requires the punished remain eternally alive, doesn't it?