Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

[Saint Steven]

It is interesting to look at how God dealt with the Israelites.
They rejected him, God sent warning prophets, they ignored them and God punished the Israelites untill they repented and turned back to God.
Then there was restoration, prosperity etc.

Indeed.
It is interesting to see what is written about God's dealings with the Israelites under the covenant of law.
Not sure what that has to do with life in the covenant of Grace. Have you seen this? (no doubt)

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

he fall out from this was that always there werethose who did not benefit from the restoration.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

God saves his people, but those who arn't saved get the bottom line of exclusion from God.

Just as not all Israelites were 'saved' so not all people will be 'saved' ./

Wait, doesn't the Bible say that ALL Israel will be saved?
Is this another case where "all" doesn't mean all?

Those who aren't "saved"? According to whom? Do you mean in this lifetime?
What about those "under the earth" (in the realm of the dead) who will "whole-heartedly" and"openly" declare Christ as Lord?
That's EVERY knee, and EVERY tongue! (according to the Bible!) - LOL

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[public hermit]

Does the fear of hell give us life to the full, or does it steal and kill and destroy?

It's hard to see what the fear of an eternal hell is supposed to accomplish. It can't generate love for God. That would be like an abusive father being loved more and more with each instance of abuse. Or worse, my love for that father growing stronger with each instance of abuse I am told about. It doesn't get more twisted than that.

I grew up terrified of God because I was told if I wasn't good God would punish me, and potentially forever. Later in life I learned about grace, the unmerited love of God, and that drew me to God. But it still took me some time to realize that my exclusionaey faith in the God who only extended grace to some was inhibiting my own faith and love. Once I came to believe God's love could not be thwarted by anyone, the sky opened up and I saw divine love for what it is: generous, unrelenting, almighty.

A god who cannot redeem all is either not love or simply to weak to succeed.

 

[public hermit]

Is this another case where "all" doesn't mean all?

There is a tendency to treat metaphorical language about gehenna , lakes of fire and burning chaff literally, and to treat literal language about "all" figuratively. Of course, in some instances, the word "all" can be treated both literally and figuratively when they occur in the same statement! Exegetical backflips to ensure someone burns forever.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There is a tendency to treat metaphorical language about gehenna , lakes of fire and burning chaff literally, and to treat literal language about "all" figuratively. Of course, in some instances, the word "all" can be treated both literally and figuratively when they occur in the same statement! Exegetical backflips to ensure someone burns forever.

Personally, I'm sticking to what I told Fervent just a day or so ago ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's hard to see what the fear of an eternal hell is supposed to accomplish. It can't generate love for God. That would be like an abusive father being loved more and more with each instance of abuse. Or worse, my love for that father growing stronger with each instance of abuse I am told about. It doesn't get more twisted than that.

I grew up terrified of God because I was told if I wasn't good God would punish me, and potentially forever. Later in life I learned about grace, the unmerited love of God, and that drew me to God. But it still took me some time to realize that my exclusionaey faith in the God who only extended grace to some was inhibiting my own faith and love. Once I came to believe God's love could not be thwarted by anyone, the sky opened up and I saw divine love for what it is: generous, unrelenting, almighty.

A god who cannot redeem all is either not love or simply to weak to succeed.

[Serious comment; no sarcasm]

I do feel bad for those of you who have experienced feelings of constant terror as a part of contemplating the essence of God.

That has to be an awful feeling. I'm sorry you guys have gone through that.

 

[public hermit]

Personally, I'm sticking to what I told Fervent just a day or so ago ...

I can understand your position, which was similar, I think, to my position. At least, I maintained a position of agnosticism regarding this issue for a long time. Mostly, I maintained that position because the scriptures are ambiguous, and I think that ambiguity was reflected in the early church. The four Cappadocians are the salient example. Basil held to eternal torment. Nanzianzus was on the fence. Macrina and Nyssa held to universal reconciliation. But because the scriptural accounts are ambiguous, I have opted for what makes the most sense, at least to me. Plus, there is no more beautiful conception of the Christian faith, and more sensible imo, than the Nyssan account. I'm not kidding, it gives me chills. I love our faith. I love our God.

 

[public hermit]

[Serious comment; no sarcasm]

I do feel bad for those of you who have experienced feelings of constant terror as a part of contemplating the essence of God.

That has to be an awful feeling. I'm sorry you guys have gone through that.

Yeah, I grew up with a lot of guilt and fear, which is why I eventually rejected the faith. I'm a bit compulsive so the guilt and fear were overbearing and I just couldn't do it anymore. It has been a long hard road coming to the place I am today, but looking back I can see God's love and grace at work even in my worst moments, which I'm ashamed to say we're not a few. At any rate, I will not pass that legacy down to others

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I can understand your position, which was similar, I think, to my position. At least, I maintained a position of agnosticism regarding this issue for a long time. Mostly, I maintained that position because the scriptures are ambiguous, and I think that ambiguity was reflected in the early church. The four Cappadocians are the salient example. Basil held to eternal torment. Nanzianzus was on the fence. Macrina and Nyssa held to universal reconciliation. But because the scriptural accounts are ambiguous, I have opted for what makes the most sense, at least to me. Plus, there is no more beautiful conception of the Christian faith, and more sensible imo, than the Nyssan account. I'm not kidding, it gives me chills. I love our faith. I love our God.

I understand, PH. We all have our own conceptual journey to make as we walk with the Lord, and I know that our respective life experiences shape our perceptions and feelings about it as we go along the Way.

Peace.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's hard to see what the fear of an eternal hell is supposed to accomplish.

Indeed. In any other context it would be easily identified as extortion. "An offer they can't refuse."
But apply it to God, and it suddenly becomes hands-off. "His ways... above our ways..."
Above? Doesn't that interpretation put them below? Hello?

It can't generate love for God. That would be like an abusive father being loved more and more with each instance of abuse. Or worse, my love for that father growing stronger with each instance of abuse I am told about. It doesn't get more twisted than that.

That's a perfect example.
And why I consider myself a recovering evangelical. The UR theapy is helping immensely. - LOL

I grew up terrified of God because I was told if I wasn't good God would punish me, and potentially forever. Later in life I learned about grace, the unmerited love of God, and that drew me to God. But it still took me some time to realize that my exclusionaey faith in the God who only extended grace to some was inhibiting my own faith and love.

Right. Those doctrines draw an invisible line. It's hard to tell sometimes which side of the line you are on. A high-stakes game when ECT is on the other side of that invisible line. Absolute Terror. Is God a terrorist? (nope)

And the claim that the "Narrow Gate" refers to salvation makes it another high-stakes game. (few there be that find it?)
"Oh no... you were so close. Just a few more steps... Oh well, too bad for you."

Once I came to believe God's love could not be thwarted by anyone, the sky opened up and I saw divine love for what it is: generous, unrelenting, almighty.

I dedicate this song to hell.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Flifes-pretty-good-without-you

A god who cannot redeem all is either not love or simply to weak to succeed.

Yes! I mean what's the plan here? He can do better than what we are being fed. Insults his character. (blasphemy?)

 

[Fervent]

Voted agnostic because it is the closest to my position, though the agnosticism is over whether condititonal immortality or ECT is the better explanation for what is presented in the Bible. I could see a version of UR being supportable, but not the "hell no" variety that is common today. If we held the same being/non-being distinction of the ancients then UR could be supported, but I see it as unsupportable with modern views.

 

[public hermit]

I dedicate this song to hell

Love it!

 

[Hmm]

The Poll sowi

Danger, danger, Will Robinson... Annihilationism is a gateway drug to full blown UR. - LOL

lol. ECT -> Annihilationism -> UR and a peaceful relationship with God - NO!!! I need ECT!

Smoker -> Nicotine replacement therapy -> Freedom from nicotine - NO!!! I need my smokes!

There's a direct equivalence here and NRT is Annihilationism. The alternative is to go directly from nicotine addiction to nicotine freedom!

Similarly, heroin and Methadone but I don't want to be banned.... Famous last words lol.

#Even Satanists believe in hell. Makes one wonder about the source and agenda.

Yes, God wants us to have the fullness of life and to see His reflection of love in Jesus, not a picture of a torturer in the man-made (chiefly Augustine?) image of ECT.

 

[public hermit]

Voted agnostic because it is the closest to my position, though the agnosticism is over whether condititonal immortality or ECT is the better explanation for what is presented in the Bible. I could see a version of UR being supportable, but not the "hell no" variety that is common today. If we held the same being/non-being distinction of the ancients then UR could be supported, but I see it as unsupportable with modern views.

Thank you for voting and sharing your thoughts.

 

[public hermit]

Yes, God wants us to have the fullness of life and to see His reflection of love in Jesus, not a picture of a torturer in the man-made (chiefly Augustine?) image of ECT

I'm convinced Augustine played an outsized role in it. His conception of original sin ensured everyone enters the world damned, even unbaptised babies are subject to eternal torment. This made room for the necessity of grace, but at such a cost. I hate that because I like Augustine for so much of his work, but he poisoned the well we've been drinking from for centuries.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Danger, danger, Will Robinson... Annihilationism is a gateway drug to full blown UR. - LOL

Well, I hate to break it to you, but I have the stolen plans to the Death Star and I've been told not to share them...

 

[Hmm]

The Christian walk should not be a high-wire balancing act over the fires of hell with no safety net. The flames licking hungrily at your bare feet. One slip-up and you are toast.

I've seen some interviews with WW1 survivors. They all (and not 'all' in Team Hell's sense but all without exception) express a deep and traumatic sense of guilt that they survived while their compatriots didn't. Compare this with the Infernalist desperate joy of "Yes! I made it to heaven! I knew I would and it's unfortunate about anyone else. IThey must have desrved it.."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've seen some interviews with WW1 survivors. They all (and not 'all' in Team Hell's sense but all without exception) express a deep and traumatic sense of guilt that they survived while their compatriots didn't. Compare this with the Infernalist desperate joy of "Yes! I made it to heaven! I knew I would and it's unfortunate about anyone else. IThey must have desrved it.."

The interesting thing, for me is, in that moment years ago when I was almost murdered.......

.........I didn't feel one damned pinge of guilt for "escaping." I suppose I should have.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've seen some interviews with WW1 survivors. They all (and not 'all' in Team Hell's sense but all without exception) express a deep and traumatic sense of guilt that they survived while their compatriots didn't. Compare this with the Infernalist desperate joy of "Yes! I made it to heaven! I knew I would and it's unfortunate about anyone else. IThey must have desrved it.."

Wow. Seems to fit this description.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 NIV
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

 

[Hmm]

The interesting thing, for me is, in that moment years ago when I was almost murdered.......

.........I didn't feel one damned pinge of guilt for "escaping." I suppose I should have.

That must have been a terrifying experience and I hope you're okay. But the analogy I was trying to make with WW1 is more like if you and a friend were both attacked and you both fought the attacker and your friend died and you survived, how would you feel? Impossible to surmise I guess, but the testimony of WW1 veterans is that they felt an incredible bond with their fellow soldiers and really missed this sense of comradeship when they went back to civvy street because in the war they had friends who they knew would die to protect them but you obviously don't get this in mainstream civilian life. This was partly why the soldiers found it so hard to adjust back to normal life - another main part was that they felt anyone who hadn't been at the from could not understand them. The fact that any survivor would have had friends who did die to protect them left them with this inconsolable guilt. Maybe they thought it should have been me who was protecting you.

 

[public hermit]

I've seen some interviews with WW1 survivors. They all (and not 'all' in Team Hell's sense but all without exception) express a deep and traumatic sense of guilt that they survived while their compatriots didn't. Compare this with the Infernalist desperate joy of "Yes! I made it to heaven! I knew I would and it's unfortunate about anyone else. IThey must have desrved it.."

In one of the stranger attempts to make the eternal torment of the damned more palatable, Aquinas argues that the delight of the blessed in heaven will be amplified by their watching the torment of the damned.

Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

Summa Theologiae/Supplement to the Third Part/Question 94 - Wikisource, the free online library

en.m.wikisource.org

You just can't make this stuff up.

Aquinas is another theological giant that somehow acquiesced, but in those days you could be burned if you didn't. Sad.