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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

  1. no hell does not exist

    50.0%
  2. no it just means death

    20.0%
  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

    10.0%
  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    20.0%
  1. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    I have to admit that I have never been omnipotent/omniscient, so I do not know if this imbues moral perfection. I imagine that it does. Do you dispute that?

    I have also found that, as I have become more intelligent (not to say that I am intelligent), some of my more gaping flaws have gone away, and I have learned more about what it means to be wise and to be good... Of course, I do not always do it that way, but I find that I have improved as a person through learning.

    So, I connect my flaws either to ignorance, or to lack of will to do good, which is perhaps its own form of ignorance because it involves underestimating the worth of doing good...

    What do you think of that reasoning?

    People in heaven will still be capable of committing sin, and will still have the option, as I understand it to be. Fr. Josiah Trenham recently preached on this and he has stated that he believes moral growth continues in heaven.

    However, because we will be enlightened and think in a different way (so I believe), and beause we will also have dissolved the frail bodies that we have which imbue upon us many sources of anger and sin, it is likely that the inclinations to sin and the nature of our behavior itelf will have probably shifted.

    We are in the heavy speculation zone, heed you, but I am confident this can be defended.


    But does a robot have a consciousness and a dialog to even enjoy these things?

    We imagine that they do have something like this... but without "bad," how is "good" even processed?
     
  2. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Yes

    I suspect your lack of flaws are the result of maturity. If learning equalled less flaws, smart people would be less flawed than those who learn slower, and that has not been shown to be the case.

    For God to expect a sinner who constantly sins, ask for forgiveness only to sin again, to all of a sudden decide to quit sinning once he gets to Heaven is as naive as it would be for me to expect my cheating girlfriend to all of a sudden quit sleeping around once I marry her.

    Who cares! As long as we don't gotta go to Hell!

    the same way it’s processed in Heaven
     
  3. holo

    holo former Christian

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    Great to hear that!

    I'm not going to bash the AA approach as I know it helps a lot of people, but I'm very skeptical about the "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic" idea. In my view and experience (I used to have a drug problem) it can be just as harmful as it is helpful. If you keep telling yourself you're an alcoholic, don't be surprised if you act like one. Same thing in church, really: if you keep repeating you're a sinner, you're going to act as one. If on the other hand you focus on the fact you're righteous, chances are you'll act like a saint. That's my experience anyway, and I think it's what the bible says in several ways: as a man thinks, so he is. Peter walked on water like Christ when he looked on him rather than himself. Paul says we are transformed into Christ's image when we look on him. The prodigal son was never not his father's son, he just acted as if he wasn't because he didn't know better. Etc etc.

    We often want two contradicting things at the same time. It's almost as if we all have multiple personalities. When I'm skeptical of the idea of free will I don't mean just that we tend to act against our better knowing, but that even what we want isn't something we choose.

    My favourite colour is green. Can I choose to like yellow better? I don't see how. Maybe I could at least want to want to prefer yellow. Nope, don't see how I could choose to want something. I can't even choose to want to want to want something. But not having a truly free will doesn't mean I act every impulse and desire. But that's just because there are other, competing impulses and desires. I have one desire to eat snacks, and another desire to be healthy. I didn't choose to have any of those desires, they're just there (for all sorts of reasons, none of which have to do with free will as far as I can tell). So when I'm faced with the choice between a chocolate bar and the treadmill, the question is only which desire is strongest in that moment.

    Or to put it another way: we always do what we want.

    I think if we could see all the reasons why people do what they do, we wouldn't condemn anybody for anything.

    Suffering can be a powerful way to become enlightened in many ways. But I think if we confuse that with having to pay for our sins (as in, Jesus took part of the punishment and we have to do the rest) we're at odds with the bible or at least the first Christians.

    In a way I think we are all innocent in that we're not ultimately in control of the things that shape us. But in practice, in everyday life, I'm pretty judgmental, especially toward myself. So I try to practice seeing every thing as interconnected and interdependent, it can be very enlightening and liberating. And I keep a small hope that there is some God out there who wants us all to be true saints and will make sure that we become it some day:pray:
     
  4. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    I would say that intelligence includes wisdom...

    Or, one could say that wisdom, at least, qualifies as a form of intelligence...

    And, perhaps, omniscience would also mean omnisapient (wow the Latin root actually works out for this -- sapient does mean 'wise' or clever in discernment).

    I also have to be frank here... It might not be the politically correct thing to say, but I would imagine that the average person of higher intelligence is more moral than the average person of lower intelligence, and the fact that this is seen as discriminatory towards slow learners is actually relevant as to the overall truth value.

    Right, but in Orthodox thought, God burns away a measure of our impurities in the final judgment.

    Moreover, we believe that our spirit bodies will be perfect and behave in a way that is superior to the bodies that we have now. There's grounds to believe that, say, the sexual sins that we have, or the inclinations potentially toward anger that may be caused by our biochemistry or mental flaws, will be gone.

    A boy I grew up with was in a car accident at 17 and cannot walk. It is a big accomplishment for him to stand up fully. He also experienced brain dramage that resulted in his speech and thought processes sometimes not being clear. We believe his body upon resurrection will be healed, right...

    So our inclinations towards baser sins, if we are faithful and repentant, may perhaps be cleared up to some degree. Of course, this comes off as speculative, but it makes sense to me.

    I have heard people say that their addictions have been taken away or largely cured by God. Why not in the afterlife?

    But we still have free will in heaven. It is the fact that we have correctly chosen and worked to make ourselves better during our time on Earth that ensures that we will not commit flagrant sins before God.

    You know, it can be said that Satan had free will in the Kingdom of God, did He not?
     
  5. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    I agree with and enjoy a lot of the things that you have said here -- this has really been an excellent interaction in the middle of an apologetics debate forum.

    Some thoughts...

    I. I get what you mean about how we are changeable re: alcoholism. I think, though, it is important to recognize the potential for a return to runaway alcoholism. I think that AA tells people they are permanently alcoholics to warn them of this potential, it's a bit of the "skillful means" thing. I also have no doubt that some believe it to be the case.

    II. I began eating dog for a couple years even though I was physically ill the first three times I ate it. I found it to be repulsive that I was eating such an animal... and I wanted to overcome this repulsion if only to prove that I could do so to myself, and to see if dog is objectively good...

    Long story short, I eventually was able to eat dog like any other meat, and I found it to be a very decent meat. Not as good as a nice cut of beef, but better than most cuts of pork (minus pork ribs perhaps). But then, again, when I returned to America and visited my family and told them more about this, and saw the family dogs close up... All the reasons to never do this again rushed back at me, and I haven't had a bite of dog in a decade.

    Point being: I think we can actually will ourselves to do things and enjoy them...

    But I will admit this: we cannot will ourselves to unlike things, but we can will ourselves to like things.

    I think this is why repentance is kind of important as a concept... It is hard to imagine not wanting physical contact with a beautiful woman. It is also hard to imagine a 50-year old man saying he objectively prefers his 50-year old wife's beauty compared to the 23 year old supermodel... Yet, this sort of thing can be willed, even if it is not the case in a "state of nature" or is it the "default." And the willed & effort-sustained position is superior to the default reality.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No Kidding. I wasn't looking for a scientific explanation of anything. Your interpretation of science is not something I even vaguely wish to delve into. The bile is not a scientific explanation of anything---they're is explanations of events that are stated clearly and these things you propose as "scientific" are not part of those events. God invented science, it did not create Him. There is nothing about people being put into eternity in any scientific journal. Science by definition, has to be replicated. You can't replicate your theory. It is your opinion. God created time for us in our time--you can believe whatever you want.
     
  7. holo

    holo former Christian

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    Again, if the AA approach helps people I'm all for it. But it's easy to get stuck in an ultimately destructive and limiting identity and an all or nothing approach. For some it would be better to start seeing themselves as different persons, born again if you will. But yes, using alcohol or any other drug after having had problematic use, demands you are 100% honest with yourself.

    Absolutely, to a certain degree. But if you're trying to change your desire, that itself is a desire. So yes, maybe I can desire to desire to desire to desire to desire to prefer white meat over red, but somewhere down that line of cause and effect there will be something other than my free will that determined it. Like if you rewound it, you would find that it ultimately doesn't originate in your mind. Which again means we don't really have free will, it just feels like we do.
     
  8. holo

    holo former Christian

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    I think it's obvious that things like compassion demands some level of intelligence - you have to be smart enough to recognize the other person as a person, and be able to imagine what they are thinking and feeling. People with severe autism often lack in the ability to do that.

    But I'm not sure it's right to say a normal person has better morals, but they are more advanced, able to take more things into consideration.
     
  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Although the poster believes in eternal punishment ... this is not what the word of God teaches ... and those who believe this are in error. And yes there are many many who do promote this teaching ... again ... they are in error.

    I find it interesting that you being an atheist, instinctively know this is not acceptable ... and you are 100% correct in this regard.
     
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