Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do you believe in a literal eternal hell fire?


  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
part three, of kenneth wuest on eternal hell, greek scholar:

VI. Hell, Hades, and Tartarus


THERE are three Greek words in the New Testament translated by the one English word “hell,” which fact results in some confusion in our thinking.
One of these is “Gehenna (Γεηεννα).” It is the Greek representative of the Hebrew “Ge-Hinnom (Γε-Ηιννομ),” or Valley of Hinnom, a deep narrow valley to the south of Jerusalem, where, after the introduction of the worship of the fire-gods by Ahaz, the idolatrous Jews sacrificed their children to the god Molech. After the time of Josiah, when this practice was stopped, it became the common refuse-place of the city, where the bodies of criminals, carcasses of animals, and all sorts of filth were cast. From its depth and narrowness, and its fire and ascending smoke, it became the symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked. The word is used in Matthew 5:22 in the phrase “the hell of fire,” (Greek), and thus refers to the final abode of the wicked dead which is called in Revelation 19:20 “the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” This lake of fire is in existence now, for the word “prepared” in the Greek of Matthew 25:41 is in the perfect tense which refers to a past completed action having present results. Hell had been already prepared and was in existence when Jesus spoke these words. There is no one there now. The first occupants of that dreadful place will be the Beast and the false prophet, Satan following them 1000 years afterwards. Then at the Great White Throne Judgment, which occurs at the close of the Millennium, all lost human beings, the fallen angels, and the demons will also be sent there for eternity. Our word “hell” is the correct rendering of the word “Gehenna (Γεηεννα),” and should be so translated in the following passages, Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.
The second of these words is “Hades, (ἁδες,)” which is a transliteration, not a translation, of the Greek word. When we transliterate a word we take the spelling of that word over into another language in the respective letter equivalents, whereas when we translate a word, we take the meaning over into that language. The word itself means “The Unseen.” This was the technical Greek religious term used to designate the world of those who departed this life. The Septuagint, namely, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses this word to translate the Hebrew “Sheol, (Σηεολ,)” which has a similar general meaning. The “Hades (ἁδες)” of the pagan Greeks was the invisible land, the realm of shadow, where all Greeks went, the virtuous, to that part called Elysium (Ἐλψσιυμ), the wicked, to the other part called Tartarus (Ταρταρυς).
The difference between the pagan and Biblical conceptions of Hades is that the former conceives of Hades as the final abode of the dead, whereas the latter teaches that it is the temporary place of confinement until the Great White Throne Judgment in the case of the wicked dead, and until the resurrection of Christ, in the case of the righteous dead, the latter since that event going at once to heaven at death (Phil. 1:23).
As the pagan conception of Hades included two parts, so the Biblical idea divided it into two parts, the one called paradise (Luke 23:43, but not II Cor. 12:4, and Rev. 2:7), or Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22), for the righteous dead, and the other part for the wicked dead having no specific designation except the general word “Hades (ἁδες)” (Luke 16:23). This Greek word is found in the following passages, to be translated and interpreted generally as “Hades, (ἁδες,)” the place of the departed dead, and for the reason that the translators of the Septuagint use this word to express in the Greek language what is meant in the Hebrew by the word “Sheol, (Σηεολ,)” the place of the departed dead.
In Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15, Capernaum is to be brought down to the realms of the dead, presumably here to that portion of Hades reserved for the wicked, because of its rejection of the attesting miracles of our Lord. In Luke 16:23, the rich man was in Hades, that part where the wicked dead are kept until the judgment of the Great White Throne. In Acts 2:27, 31, our Lord at His death went to Hades, the passage in Acts being quoted from Psalm 16:, where the Hebrew is “Sheol. (Σηεολ.)” His soul was not left in Hades, the “paradise” portion, nor did His body in Joseph’s tomb see corruption, for He was raised from the dead on the third day. He as the Man Christ Jesus, possessing a human soul and spirit, as He possessed a human body, entered the abode of the righteous dead, having committed the keeping of His spirit to God the Father (Luke 23:46). The word “grave” in I Corinthians 15:55 is not from the word “Hades, (ἁδες,)” for the best manuscripts have the word “death,” while “Hades (ἁδες)” is a rejected reading. The translation should read, “death.”
In Revelation 6:8, Death and Hades follow in the wake of war and famine, Hades ready to receive the dead of the Great Tribulation period. In Revelation 20:13, 14, Death itself, and Hades with all the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire.
There are just two places where this Greek word should be translated rather than transliterated. In Revelation 1:18, our Lord has the keys or control of The Unseen and of death. That is, He is master of the unseen world which in the Christian system includes Hades, Tartarus, and the kingdom of Satan in the atmosphere of this earth.
The other place is Matthew 16:18 where we translate “The Unseen.” The word “prevail” in the Greek means “to be strong to another’s detriment, to overpower.” The word “gates” is an orientalism for the idea of centralized legal authority. Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. Boaz went to the gate of Bethlehem to settle a legal matter with reference to his proposed marriage to Ruth. The word refers to a council. The word “hades” is out of the question here as an adequate translation, because the wicked dead in that place have no power to overcome the Church, and the righteous dead there at the time our Lord spoke these words had neither the desire nor power. The holy angels in heaven would have no such desire. All that is left in the unseen world are Satan and his demons. These constitute the Council in the Unseen that desires to bring about the destruction of the Church.
The third word translated “hell” is in II Peter 2:4 where the Greek word is “Tartarus (Ταρταρυς),” the prison of the fallen angels that sinned at the time of the flood (Gen. 6:1–4; I Peter 3:19, 20; Jude 6).
This brief study contains all the passages where the word “hell” is used in the New Testament, and can be used as a guide to the correct translation in each case.


Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest’s word studies from the Greek New Testament: for the English reader (Vol. 19, pp. 34–47). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.


Please, spare yourself the trouble. I know MY GOD. I do not care to know this God that tortures unjustly. GOD IS LOVE, HE IS JUSTICE. I do not wish to read the thoughts of those who want a God that is unjust. I read His word with the knowledge that He is love and justice. The wicked will all pay for their sins "according to their works." That is justice. Touring anyone for eternity is not just. The soul is not eternal. Adam and Eve required the tree of life to be eternal.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


They had to be caste out of the garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and living. forever.

The saved get the priveledge of the tree of life once again.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I do not believe that the saved will be throwing the lost fruit from the tree of life to keep them living so they can be tortured forever. Save yourself some trouble and simply post the verses that say God grants eternal life to the lost for the bible only mentions eternal life as a gift to the saved.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

YOU CAN NOT GET IT ANY PLAINER!
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I never said free will was a flaw. If God is perfect and has free will yet chooses not to sin because he is perfect, had Adam and Eve been just as perfect with free will, they would have chosen not to sin also.
They chose to sin with their free will, God as per His nature chooses not to sin. Jesus said He came to do the fathers will only. Free will is not sin in itself. It is what we do with it that matters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Verv
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
a book in the ancient world was really the only way to preserve history. If you don't like books, you don't like most of the history we know today.
Perhaps you'd like to reconsider this thought?

I like books. I like history. I think the invention of writing is the most important thing that humans ever came up with. More important that the wheel or the use of fire.

Still, it has its limitations. Like any other human invention. I know that, I understand that. I have no problems with that.

But that is the key point: the "human" part. If you want to say that "a book in the ancient world was really the only way that God could come up with to preserve history"... you might try to ask yourself why your deity is limited to human nature.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps you'd like to reconsider this thought?

I like books. I like history. I think the invention of writing is the most important thing that humans ever came up with. More important that the wheel or the use of fire.

Still, it has its limitations. Like any other human invention. I know that, I understand that. I have no problems with that.

But that is the key point: the "human" part. If you want to say that "a book in the ancient world was really the only way that God could come up with to preserve history"... you might try to ask yourself why your deity is limited to human nature.
God can do everything Himself. But there is a common quote it says "Without Him we can't, without us He won't." Basically God has limited Himself. He inspired human beings to write the Bible, when He could have done it Himself. I think He inspired their actual personalities, and incorporated that into a divinely perfect word of God. It's not different with using ancient scrolls, it's imperfect but He made it perfect by His power. How accurate were the scribes, well we found a copy of Isaiah the prophet in the dead sea scroll find, and the copy of Isaiah was nearly identical, with only grammatical differences, periods, and coma's etc. With an older copy that was 1000 years older. So that means for a thousand years they copied and recopied to perfection. Scribes were very meticulous. Here is a good link to learn more about the scribal process:

Process of copying the Old Testament by Jewish Scribes
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,427
2,998
52
the Hague NL
✟69,862.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

No.
It is infinitely disproportionate to our mere 80 years in the flesh.

The Biblical case for it is also very weak compared to the Biblical case for Conditional Immortality and the annihilation of wickedness.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

No.
It is infinitely disproportionate to our mere 80 years in the flesh.

The Biblical case for it is also very weak compared to the Biblical case for Conditional Immortality and the annihilation of wickedness.
the soul is infinite, time according to general relativity on accelerates mass, if you have no mass you don't have time. Let me quote Einstein: “Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.” Many things we intermingle with actually exist in higher dimensions, the soul is one of those things, angels are another, they have no mass therefore they are timeless and for this illustration infinite. Although infinite is a misnomer, an infinity is a lot of time, where timelessness is no time is being applied. But granted we will say that the soul is infinite. If the soul is infinite then when it sins, commands our body to sin. It bears the responsibility for that evil. Because it commanded it. All sin is eternal. Because it started out as a thought. And thoughts can be sin. IT makes more sense when you think of it this way. Information in general is eternal, it has no mass. Only higher up information theorists know what I am talking about, but I will let the cat out of the bag. Information cannot be destroyed. Information I can also say, has always existed. It is up to us to discover it. Sin is going against the information, and violating the information. Information is Holy, and Just. And pure. And it is in that information we see the law of nature as CS lewis put it. Every tribe in the world uses this moral law. Never in a tribe or culture do you see selfishness honored, and self sacrifice not honored. But anyway, I hope this answers your question. For one infinite sin, we deserve to be punished for eternity. Because sins are eternal. But there is hope, Jesus died for our sins, and we can receive the free gift of eternal life. But you must repent of known sins, prepare your heart to receive Him by faith, and receive Him. At that point you will be saved because you chose to follow the one person who can save. This means no more inappropriate contentography, no more prostitution, online or other, taking the high road, curbing your anger. And just basically following Christ.
Are you ready to do that today?
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

No.
It is infinitely disproportionate to our mere 80 years in the flesh.

The Biblical case for it is also very weak compared to the Biblical case for Conditional Immortality and the annihilation of wickedness.
I make a complete logical case for eternal hell in post one, as well as dive into the greek. You should check it out.

here it is:
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
the soul is infinite, time according to general relativity on accelerates mass, if you have no mass you don't have time. Let me quote Einstein: “Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.” Many things we intermingle with actually exist in higher dimensions, the soul is one of those things, angels are another, they have no mass therefore they are timeless and for this illustration infinite. Although infinite is a misnomer, an infinity is a lot of time, where timelessness is no time is being applied. But granted we will say that the soul is infinite. If the soul is infinite then when it sins, commands our body to sin. It bears the responsibility for that evil. Because it commanded it. All sin is eternal. Because it started out as a thought. And thoughts can be sin. IT makes more sense when you think of it this way. Information in general is eternal, it has no mass. Only higher up information theorists know what I am talking about, but I will let the cat out of the bag. Information cannot be destroyed. Information I can also say, has always existed. It is up to us to discover it. Sin is going against the information, and violating the information. Information is Holy, and Just. And pure. And it is in that information we see the law of nature as CS lewis put it. Every tribe in the world uses this moral law. Never in a tribe or culture do you see selfishness honored, and self sacrifice not honored. But anyway, I hope this answers your question. For one infinite sin, we deserve to be punished for eternity. Because sins are eternal. But there is hope, Jesus died for our sins, and we can receive the free gift of eternal life. But you must repent of known sins, prepare your heart to receive Him by faith, and receive Him. At that point you will be saved because you chose to follow the one person who can save. This means no more inappropriate contentography, no more prostitution, online or other, taking the high road, curbing your anger. And just basically following Christ.
Are you ready to do that today?

It is not justified and God does not inflict it. The soul is not eternal the idea comes from the Greeks. As pointed out---Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of life in order to have eternal life. They were kicked out of the garden to prevent them from doing so.
Einstein doesn't know what kind of bolides we will have. Jesus kept His humanity, Her could be touched, His side wound felt, and He ate after His resurrection. But He could still go through locked doors. He also still keeps His divinity of which we do not share. We will have a glorified yet human body and we will be able to eat---we will share the Marriage Supper with Jesus and have the fruit of the tree of life.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,790
✟225,690.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
They chose to sin with their free will, God as per His nature chooses not to sin. Jesus said He came to do the fathers will only. Free will is not sin in itself. It is what we do with it that matters.
That's my point! Had God created Adam and Eve with the same sinless nature he had, they would have chosen to not sin as well! Why on Earth would God create them with a sinful nature then punish them for sinning?
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
God can do everything Himself. But there is a common quote it says "Without Him we can't, without us He won't." Basically God has limited Himself. He inspired human beings to write the Bible, when He could have done it Himself. I think He inspired their actual personalities, and incorporated that into a divinely perfect word of God. It's not different with using ancient scrolls, it's imperfect but He made it perfect by His power. How accurate were the scribes, well we found a copy of Isaiah the prophet in the dead sea scroll find, and the copy of Isaiah was nearly identical, with only grammatical differences, periods, and coma's etc. With an older copy that was 1000 years older. So that means for a thousand years they copied and recopied to perfection. Scribes were very meticulous. Here is a good link to learn more about the scribal process:

Process of copying the Old Testament by Jewish Scribes
Scholars are very aware that there are differences between these texts, some quite significant. It is not as perfect as you describe.

But I find it quite amusing that you have to make this argument at all. After all, my point was that a real deity should have some better method for communication... and all you have to offer in rebuttal is to tell me how well someone copied - hand-copied - a book.

You cannot even consider an alternative... even if you spell it out. You say you "think He inspired their actual personalities". Hey, look, a more direct, better way of communication.
But instead of inspiring ALL humans... God had them write books. He didn't even bother to inspire them to invent printing... which already would have been a huge improvement.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Verv

Senior Veteran
Apr 17, 2005
7,244
624
서울
✟31,762.00
Country
Korea, Republic Of
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That's my point! Had God created Adam and Eve with the same sinless nature he had, they would have chosen to not sin as well! Why on Earth would God create them with a sinful nature then punish them for sinning?

This brings up a lot of questions for speculation about what a sinless nature is.

Is God sinless because, in His Omniscience & Omnipotence, He avoids sin, and He defines sin? Or is there a separate aspect to Him that is 'sinless?'

I think the former. God is sinless for a variety of reasons, and there is not some nature that can be bestowed unto something that isn't Him that would enable something to be theoretically sinless and maintain free will.

Let us remember that even the angels are not without sin -- and that Satan is a fallen angel.

Adam & Eve were not created to be sinners with a stained and fallen nature, as I understand it, but rather were created with free will (and certainly not to be omnipotent & omniscient).

It was simply foreknown that they would fall. There is a distinction between something being known in advance, and it being ordained.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,790
✟225,690.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This brings up a lot of questions for speculation about what a sinless nature is.

Is God sinless because, in His Omniscience & Omnipotence, He avoids sin, and He defines sin? Or is there a separate aspect to Him that is 'sinless?'

I think the former. God is sinless for a variety of reasons, and there is not some nature that can be bestowed unto something that isn't Him that would enable something to be theoretically sinless and maintain free will.

Isn’t “Omnipotent” one of God’s abilities? That means he has unlimited power and ability. Unlimited ability means he has the ability to make sure all humans are born with the desire to refrain from sin the same way we have the desire to refrain from spoiled and rotten food.
 
Upvote 0

Verv

Senior Veteran
Apr 17, 2005
7,244
624
서울
✟31,762.00
Country
Korea, Republic Of
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Isn’t “Omnipotent” one of God’s abilities? That means he has unlimited power and ability. Unlimited ability means he has the ability to make sure all humans are born with the desire to refrain from sin the same way we have the desire to refrain from spoiled and rotten food.

But would man, then, be free?

Moreover, is the actual goal for all of man to perfectly abstain from sin by virtue of how man was created?

The Christian concept of theosis found in Eastern Orthodoxy hints at the idea that we are all in the process of becoming more Godlike through a process. St. John Climacus describes it as a sort of ladder of divine ascent.

When we think of our children or even our pets who we train, we think the process of training them & bringing them up is rewarding. We conceptualize most things around us as processes, and we view the process as part of the reward itself. There are some circumstances where we can even say that the journey is the destination -- though I am not sure that this actually describes theosis or heaven well, but I have heard sermons that heaven is a place of continued growth.

I think the argument you have made would only make sense on the assumption that God simply wants people to abstain from sin, and nothing else, and that does not appear to be the case.
 
Upvote 0

Ken-1122

Newbie
Jan 30, 2011
13,574
1,790
✟225,690.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
But would man, then, be free?
Free of eternal hell fire; YES!!!
Moreover, is the actual goal for all of man to perfectly abstain from sin by virtue of how man was created?
Yes; hence the eternal punishment for sinning.
The Christian concept of theosis found in Eastern Orthodoxy hints at the idea that we are all in the process of becoming more Godlike through a process.
If God wanted us to be “Godlike” we would not have been born in sin and shaped in iniquity; we would all be born sinless and perfect.
St. John Climacus describes it as a sort of ladder of divine ascent.

When we think of our children or even our pets who we train, we think the process of training them & bringing them up is rewarding. We conceptualize most things around us as processes, and we view the process as part of the reward itself. There are some circumstances where we can even say that the journey is the destination -- though I am not sure that this actually describes theosis or heaven well, but I have heard sermons that heaven is a place of continued growth.

I think the argument you have made would only make sense on the assumption that God simply wants people to abstain from sin, and nothing else, and that does not appear to be the case.
If God didn’t want us to abstain from sin, why the eternal harsh punishment for sinning? It would be better to have never been born at all than to be born, live 80 years only to spend eternity in the tortures of hell when you die.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is not justified and God does not inflict it. The soul is not eternal the idea comes from the Greeks. As pointed out---Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of life in order to have eternal life. They were kicked out of the garden to prevent them from doing so.
Einstein doesn't know what kind of bolides we will have. Jesus kept His humanity, Her could be touched, His side wound felt, and He ate after His resurrection. But He could still go through locked doors. He also still keeps His divinity of which we do not share. We will have a glorified yet human body and we will be able to eat---we will share the Marriage Supper with Jesus and have the fruit of the tree of life.
Alot of Greek thought actually came from ancient judaism, so to say I got that thought from the Greeks is a little innacurate. I have evidence from a sixteenth century document about the sons of noah that hercules actually was related to noahs three sons, and he was a large person very strong and won a lot of wars. Greeks diefied him. Also, Some say the new testament borrows from greek thought as well and this too is innacurate. For more info on this idea read the book "the gospels and the greeks, Ronald nash".

Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.

Jesus could go through locked doors but notice that he only did this after the resurrection, which means that his flesh was glorified, it was not the same flesh that you and me have but a flesh that could defy the laws of physics. Sort of like a higher dimensional being could defy our physical dimensions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Alot of Greek thought actually came from ancient judaism, so to say I got that thought from the Greeks is a little innacurate. I have evidence from a sixteenth century document about the sons of noah that hercules actually was related to noahs three sons, and he was a large person very strong and won a lot of wars. Greeks diefied him. Also, Some say the new testament borrows from greek thought as well and this too is innacurate. For more info on this idea read the book "the gospels and the greeks, Ronald nash".

Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.

Jesus could go through locked doors but notice that he only did this after the resurrection, which means that his flesh was glorified, it was not the same flesh that you and me have but a flesh that could defy the laws of physics. Sort of like a higher dimensional being could defy our physical dimensions.

I did not say you got it from the Greeks. The concept came from the Greeks not from the Jews. The soul is not eternal. The bible does not state that. Again--God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die---not burn in hell forever. Are you of the opinion that God lied, or just told them a half truth?
"The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body, although later Jewish writers developed the idea of the soul further. Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St. Augustine."

I said Jesus did that after His resurrection. And we will have a glorified human body as His, except that He always was divine and remains so.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I did not say you got it from the Greeks. The concept came from the Greeks not from the Jews. The soul is not eternal. The bible does not state that. Again--God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die---not burn in hell forever. Are you of the opinion that God lied, or just told them a half truth?
"The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body, although later Jewish writers developed the idea of the soul further. Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St. Augustine."

I said Jesus did that after His resurrection. And we will have a glorified human body as His, except that He always was divine and remains so.
your best defense is using adam and eve, but I refuted that in my last post, here I will post it again:

Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.


again if their soul already died, why would they be sent to Hell or heaven, without a soul?
 
Upvote 0

holo

former Christian
Dec 24, 2003
8,992
751
✟77,794.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
But would man, then, be free?
That raises a couple of questions. What does it mean to be free? If Adam and Eve hadn't had the ability to eat the forbidden fruit, would they've been worse off somehow? I really can't see how placing the tree there was somehow better.

In any case, let's say this supposed free will is so precious to God. Is it really more precious than all the suffering that's resulted from it? AFAIK, most Christians believe that all suffering is a consequence of these two people's mistake. The holocaust, most people going to hell forever, every sickness, every second of fear any being has ever experienced, every tear ever wept, every loss, broken bone, anxiety, vomiting, murder, cancer, slavery, wars, torture, devil worship, false religion, all the suffering anybody has ever endured - was worth it, just so that a few people got to love God "freely". The rest be damned, literally.

So I have a hard time taking Genesis literally. I do believe the story makes some very important points though, it says something about our nature that is obviously true, and which Paul later repeats: the commandment is the power of sin. There's a reason "the forbidden fruit" has become a common term. If it's off limits, it's tempting.

Moreover, is the actual goal for all of man to perfectly abstain from sin by virtue of how man was created?
What's the Orthodox take on that? The Christianity I'm most familiar with is very concerned with sin and life is basically a constant battle against it.

I think the argument you have made would only make sense on the assumption that God simply wants people to abstain from sin, and nothing else, and that does not appear to be the case.
I can't think of any scripture that explicitly states that man has "free will." On the other hand there are lots of verses that say God decides a man's steps, he ordains what will happen, he hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others, all will be done according to his will, he ordained the believers before the world was created etc etc. I think one would be hard pressed using the bible to defend the idea of free will.
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I can't think of any scripture that explicitly states that man has "free will." On the other hand there are lots of verses that say God decides a man's steps, he ordains what will happen, he hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others, all will be done according to his will, he ordained the believers before the world was created etc etc. I think one would be hard pressed using the bible to defend the idea of free will.
Well ... NOONE has complete free will (i.e. you can do ANYTHING you like), but wouldn't the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil (and Adam/Eve's breaking of the command) indicate some level of free will ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟931,284.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
your best defense is using adam and eve, but I refuted that in my last post, here I will post it again:

Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.


again if their soul already died, why would they be sent to Hell or heaven, without a soul?
Biblically, Adam "became a living soul", ... so the soul cannot be eternal.

Biblically, the soul is the "union" of body and spirit ... so it is entirely appropriate to refer to the soul in hell.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.