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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

  1. no hell does not exist

    50.0%
  2. no it just means death

    20.0%
  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

    10.0%
  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    20.0%
  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Please, spare yourself the trouble. I know MY GOD. I do not care to know this God that tortures unjustly. GOD IS LOVE, HE IS JUSTICE. I do not wish to read the thoughts of those who want a God that is unjust. I read His word with the knowledge that He is love and justice. The wicked will all pay for their sins "according to their works." That is justice. Touring anyone for eternity is not just. The soul is not eternal. Adam and Eve required the tree of life to be eternal.

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


    They had to be caste out of the garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and living. forever.

    The saved get the priveledge of the tree of life once again.

    Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    I do not believe that the saved will be throwing the lost fruit from the tree of life to keep them living so they can be tortured forever. Save yourself some trouble and simply post the verses that say God grants eternal life to the lost for the bible only mentions eternal life as a gift to the saved.

    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    YOU CAN NOT GET IT ANY PLAINER!
     
  2. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    They chose to sin with their free will, God as per His nature chooses not to sin. Jesus said He came to do the fathers will only. Free will is not sin in itself. It is what we do with it that matters.
     
  3. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

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    Perhaps you'd like to reconsider this thought?

    I like books. I like history. I think the invention of writing is the most important thing that humans ever came up with. More important that the wheel or the use of fire.

    Still, it has its limitations. Like any other human invention. I know that, I understand that. I have no problems with that.

    But that is the key point: the "human" part. If you want to say that "a book in the ancient world was really the only way that God could come up with to preserve history"... you might try to ask yourself why your deity is limited to human nature.
     
  4. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    God can do everything Himself. But there is a common quote it says "Without Him we can't, without us He won't." Basically God has limited Himself. He inspired human beings to write the Bible, when He could have done it Himself. I think He inspired their actual personalities, and incorporated that into a divinely perfect word of God. It's not different with using ancient scrolls, it's imperfect but He made it perfect by His power. How accurate were the scribes, well we found a copy of Isaiah the prophet in the dead sea scroll find, and the copy of Isaiah was nearly identical, with only grammatical differences, periods, and coma's etc. With an older copy that was 1000 years older. So that means for a thousand years they copied and recopied to perfection. Scribes were very meticulous. Here is a good link to learn more about the scribal process:

    Process of copying the Old Testament by Jewish Scribes
     
  5. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

    No.
    It is infinitely disproportionate to our mere 80 years in the flesh.

    The Biblical case for it is also very weak compared to the Biblical case for Conditional Immortality and the annihilation of wickedness.
     
  6. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    the soul is infinite, time according to general relativity on accelerates mass, if you have no mass you don't have time. Let me quote Einstein: “Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.” Many things we intermingle with actually exist in higher dimensions, the soul is one of those things, angels are another, they have no mass therefore they are timeless and for this illustration infinite. Although infinite is a misnomer, an infinity is a lot of time, where timelessness is no time is being applied. But granted we will say that the soul is infinite. If the soul is infinite then when it sins, commands our body to sin. It bears the responsibility for that evil. Because it commanded it. All sin is eternal. Because it started out as a thought. And thoughts can be sin. IT makes more sense when you think of it this way. Information in general is eternal, it has no mass. Only higher up information theorists know what I am talking about, but I will let the cat out of the bag. Information cannot be destroyed. Information I can also say, has always existed. It is up to us to discover it. Sin is going against the information, and violating the information. Information is Holy, and Just. And pure. And it is in that information we see the law of nature as CS lewis put it. Every tribe in the world uses this moral law. Never in a tribe or culture do you see selfishness honored, and self sacrifice not honored. But anyway, I hope this answers your question. For one infinite sin, we deserve to be punished for eternity. Because sins are eternal. But there is hope, Jesus died for our sins, and we can receive the free gift of eternal life. But you must repent of known sins, prepare your heart to receive Him by faith, and receive Him. At that point you will be saved because you chose to follow the one person who can save. This means no more pornography, no more prostitution, online or other, taking the high road, curbing your anger. And just basically following Christ.
    Are you ready to do that today?
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I make a complete logical case for eternal hell in post one, as well as dive into the greek. You should check it out.

    here it is:
    Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified
     
  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    It is not justified and God does not inflict it. The soul is not eternal the idea comes from the Greeks. As pointed out---Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of life in order to have eternal life. They were kicked out of the garden to prevent them from doing so.
    Einstein doesn't know what kind of bolides we will have. Jesus kept His humanity, Her could be touched, His side wound felt, and He ate after His resurrection. But He could still go through locked doors. He also still keeps His divinity of which we do not share. We will have a glorified yet human body and we will be able to eat---we will share the Marriage Supper with Jesus and have the fruit of the tree of life.
     
  9. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    That's my point! Had God created Adam and Eve with the same sinless nature he had, they would have chosen to not sin as well! Why on Earth would God create them with a sinful nature then punish them for sinning?
     
  10. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

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    Scholars are very aware that there are differences between these texts, some quite significant. It is not as perfect as you describe.

    But I find it quite amusing that you have to make this argument at all. After all, my point was that a real deity should have some better method for communication... and all you have to offer in rebuttal is to tell me how well someone copied - hand-copied - a book.

    You cannot even consider an alternative... even if you spell it out. You say you "think He inspired their actual personalities". Hey, look, a more direct, better way of communication.
    But instead of inspiring ALL humans... God had them write books. He didn't even bother to inspire them to invent printing... which already would have been a huge improvement.
     
  11. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    This brings up a lot of questions for speculation about what a sinless nature is.

    Is God sinless because, in His Omniscience & Omnipotence, He avoids sin, and He defines sin? Or is there a separate aspect to Him that is 'sinless?'

    I think the former. God is sinless for a variety of reasons, and there is not some nature that can be bestowed unto something that isn't Him that would enable something to be theoretically sinless and maintain free will.

    Let us remember that even the angels are not without sin -- and that Satan is a fallen angel.

    Adam & Eve were not created to be sinners with a stained and fallen nature, as I understand it, but rather were created with free will (and certainly not to be omnipotent & omniscient).

    It was simply foreknown that they would fall. There is a distinction between something being known in advance, and it being ordained.
     
  12. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Isn’t “Omnipotent” one of God’s abilities? That means he has unlimited power and ability. Unlimited ability means he has the ability to make sure all humans are born with the desire to refrain from sin the same way we have the desire to refrain from spoiled and rotten food.
     
  13. Verv

    Verv Senior Veteran

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    But would man, then, be free?

    Moreover, is the actual goal for all of man to perfectly abstain from sin by virtue of how man was created?

    The Christian concept of theosis found in Eastern Orthodoxy hints at the idea that we are all in the process of becoming more Godlike through a process. St. John Climacus describes it as a sort of ladder of divine ascent.

    When we think of our children or even our pets who we train, we think the process of training them & bringing them up is rewarding. We conceptualize most things around us as processes, and we view the process as part of the reward itself. There are some circumstances where we can even say that the journey is the destination -- though I am not sure that this actually describes theosis or heaven well, but I have heard sermons that heaven is a place of continued growth.

    I think the argument you have made would only make sense on the assumption that God simply wants people to abstain from sin, and nothing else, and that does not appear to be the case.
     
  14. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Free of eternal hell fire; YES!!!
    Yes; hence the eternal punishment for sinning.
    If God wanted us to be “Godlike” we would not have been born in sin and shaped in iniquity; we would all be born sinless and perfect.
    If God didn’t want us to abstain from sin, why the eternal harsh punishment for sinning? It would be better to have never been born at all than to be born, live 80 years only to spend eternity in the tortures of hell when you die.
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Alot of Greek thought actually came from ancient judaism, so to say I got that thought from the Greeks is a little innacurate. I have evidence from a sixteenth century document about the sons of noah that hercules actually was related to noahs three sons, and he was a large person very strong and won a lot of wars. Greeks diefied him. Also, Some say the new testament borrows from greek thought as well and this too is innacurate. For more info on this idea read the book "the gospels and the greeks, Ronald nash".

    Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.

    Jesus could go through locked doors but notice that he only did this after the resurrection, which means that his flesh was glorified, it was not the same flesh that you and me have but a flesh that could defy the laws of physics. Sort of like a higher dimensional being could defy our physical dimensions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I did not say you got it from the Greeks. The concept came from the Greeks not from the Jews. The soul is not eternal. The bible does not state that. Again--God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the tree they would die---not burn in hell forever. Are you of the opinion that God lied, or just told them a half truth?
    "The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body, although later Jewish writers developed the idea of the soul further. Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St. Augustine."

    I said Jesus did that after His resurrection. And we will have a glorified human body as His, except that He always was divine and remains so.
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    your best defense is using adam and eve, but I refuted that in my last post, here I will post it again:

    Regarding adam and eve. During the original sin adam and eve died yes but only their spirit. To me this is the part of our soul that goes to heaven, the part that worships and allows us to do good. That part died, now when we believe the gospel we must be born again. That spirit is reborn. The soul was eternal the whole time, but it's the part of the soul that is reborn that died. See when we go to hell our soul is still there. There are dozens of verses that say our soul was in hell, if it was simply annihilation or death, technicall the soul would not actually be there any longer.


    again if their soul already died, why would they be sent to Hell or heaven, without a soul?
     
  18. holo

    holo former Christian

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    That raises a couple of questions. What does it mean to be free? If Adam and Eve hadn't had the ability to eat the forbidden fruit, would they've been worse off somehow? I really can't see how placing the tree there was somehow better.

    In any case, let's say this supposed free will is so precious to God. Is it really more precious than all the suffering that's resulted from it? AFAIK, most Christians believe that all suffering is a consequence of these two people's mistake. The holocaust, most people going to hell forever, every sickness, every second of fear any being has ever experienced, every tear ever wept, every loss, broken bone, anxiety, vomiting, murder, cancer, slavery, wars, torture, devil worship, false religion, all the suffering anybody has ever endured - was worth it, just so that a few people got to love God "freely". The rest be damned, literally.

    So I have a hard time taking Genesis literally. I do believe the story makes some very important points though, it says something about our nature that is obviously true, and which Paul later repeats: the commandment is the power of sin. There's a reason "the forbidden fruit" has become a common term. If it's off limits, it's tempting.

    What's the Orthodox take on that? The Christianity I'm most familiar with is very concerned with sin and life is basically a constant battle against it.

    I can't think of any scripture that explicitly states that man has "free will." On the other hand there are lots of verses that say God decides a man's steps, he ordains what will happen, he hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others, all will be done according to his will, he ordained the believers before the world was created etc etc. I think one would be hard pressed using the bible to defend the idea of free will.
     
  19. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well ... NOONE has complete free will (i.e. you can do ANYTHING you like), but wouldn't the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil (and Adam/Eve's breaking of the command) indicate some level of free will ?
     
  20. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Biblically, Adam "became a living soul", ... so the soul cannot be eternal.

    Biblically, the soul is the "union" of body and spirit ... so it is entirely appropriate to refer to the soul in hell.
     
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