Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[createdtoworship]

How do you determine that God is good, if you're not using your sense of morality/justice?

goodness is not something that requires knowledge. True justice does rely on knowledge. The more knowledge you have regarding a case (as a Judge), the more just you can be. Granted you are also a good Judge.

Yes, and it also says God is almighty etc. It appears as if God, the most powerful entity imaginable, will the one whose will is least satisfied. He wants to save everybody, but he is forced to torture the vast majority of them endlessly. Even if they just committed one single sin before they died.

so is this a biblical question? If not, then I refer to my logical case for eternal hell in the OP. Not that of one sin, but that of 30,000 sins. But if you wish to talk about the Bible, I ask that you pray for the holy spirit to give you eyes to see the scriptures, because without that, it's impossible for the natural man to understand. Hence your issue with one sin we get hell.

Why indeed. It's not like God wouldn't know what would happen to most of the souls he created.

He does know what they will choose, but again He never created them to die. He created them to live, but they chose death by free will. IF I wrote you a check for eternal life, and you didn't believe in the check, even though it was free you still would not be saved because you didn't believe the check was good. You sealed your own fate by lacking faith.

He must? Why must he?

If you were God, would you create a free society, or would you create robots that only did what you command? So too, God desired not to create robots and he created us free.

And in any case, of course nobody would choose to spend eternity in hell.

Judas knew of all the miracles of Jesus, seen Him heal the blind, the lame, and the demon possessed dozens of times, he even seen the other disciples do the same in Jesus name. Yet He still chose to betray Christ for a bag of silver. People don't make the best choices, here is a link about free will that may be of more use to you and why people choose evil over good:
A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will’

If anybody "chose" that, it's obviously because they didn't know what they were choosing.

Or they chose to make themselves ignorant of the topic. It's like a kid covering his face and thinking his parents don't see him. Just because you don't believe in prison, doesn't mean that if you commit murder you won't go there. Even if you never believed in prison until the day you showed up, the guards won't give a rip about your personal belief of the prison. But you are correct, we should be preaching more on hell. I have done my part preaching about the reality of hell, and if you don't believe, that is on you.

What's a sin of the flesh?

the manifestation of any sin that was a thought sin.

So the manifestation, or consequence, of the sin is physical. Then it's reasonable that the punishment is also physical.

it's not your body's fault that you got drunk and killed a pedestrian. It's not your foots fault that pressed the gas peddle. You as a whole are punished.

As the principle in the bible goes, an eye for an eye. Not a leg for an arm, a life for a theft. The basic idea is that the punishment fits the crime.

I believe I answered this already.

Anyway I don't know what you mean by "thought sins are eternal." You don't think about one single thing for eternity. And also what about the good thoughts you've had, are they "eternal" too?

our soul is massless and outside of time. Our thoughts are what governs our body, again your foot is not who is to blame for a hit and run DUI, just because it was on the gas peddle. You are to blame, because your mind is what sinned. Your body just obeyed what your mind commanded it to. So since your mind is eternal (because it is massless and beyond the time domain), it must be punished beyond the time domain, and in eternity. (I have said this numerous times and in numerous ways, I hope this is making sense to you).

 

[createdtoworship]

If Jesus took our punishment upon himself, how is he not in hell eternally?

Jesus didn't go to hell because He never sinned. However God designed a punishment for him including severing the Godhead, the triunity, at the crucifixion. God and the holy spirit and God the father were one truinity for all of eternity, accept on that crucifixion day. God forsook the son, and it was not long after God forsook him that He died. But yes he was tortured, whipped with a cat of nine tails, which is a whip of 9 leather straps with bone embedded in the laces, which basically filleted his skin off his torso. Then he was crucified. Then he was forsaken by His father. This pre-designed torture, was sufficient for God to forgive the sins of the world. Jesus went to paradise and released those in abraham's bosom. He went to a type of hell, but He never went to the lake of fire, mainly because Jesus is God and no prison could hold him, for one, but secondly and more importantly He never sinned.

 

[Yttrium]

your argument is incoherent.

it makes no sense, the idea that free will only gets you into hell, but does not keep you there.

what if I was a witness to a burglary, and I testified in court that I saw a young Caucasian male, with blonde hair, and blue eyes, and I picked him out of a line up, and He was convicted,

would his free will be responsible for his entire prison sentence, or simply the first day?

Sigh.

Allow me to rephrase. Free will could get you into Hell for a limited period. Not unlimited.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sigh.

Allow me to rephrase. Free will could get you into Hell for a limited period. Not unlimited.

I can agree with your sentiment here, Yttrium. The only thing is, as an annihilationist, I may or may not agree with your view of the final outcome when everything is said and done.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jesus didn't go to hell because He never sinned. However God designed a punishment for him including severing the Godhead, the triunity, at the crucifixion. God and the holy spirit and God the father were one truinity for all of eternity, accept on that crucifixion day. God forsook the son, and it was not long after God forsook him that He died. But yes he was tortured, whipped with a cat of nine tails, which is a whip of 9 leather straps with bone embedded in the laces, which basically filleted his skin off his torso. Then he was crucified. Then he was forsaken by His father. This pre-designed torture, was sufficient for God to forgive the sins of the world. Jesus went to paradise and released those in abraham's bosom. He went to a type of hell, but He never went to the lake of fire, mainly because Jesus is God and no prison could hold him, for one, but secondly and more importantly He never sinned.

Jesus was "severed" from the God-head? ........uh, what?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If you were God, would you create a free society, or would you create robots that only did what you command? So too, God desired not to create robots and he created us free.

If I were god, I would of created humans with the free will to choose to do evil things, but with no propensity to do so.

So, you’d have both free will and no need for a hell.

Since that’s not the way the world is, any existent god who could have done such a thing could be said to desire the evil that humans cause more than creating a world in which it doesn't take place.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sigh.

Allow me to rephrase. Free will could get you into Hell for a limited period. Not unlimited.

the same illustration would apply: what if I was a witness to a burglary, and I testified in court that I saw a young Caucasian male, with blonde hair, and blue eyes, and I picked him out of a line up, and He was convicted,

would his free will be responsible for his entire prison sentence, or simply a temporary period?

 

[Yttrium]

the same illustration would apply: what if I was a witness to a burglary, and I testified in court that I saw a young Caucasian male, with blonde hair, and blue eyes, and I picked him out of a line up, and He was convicted,

would his free will be responsible for his entire prison sentence, or simply a temporary period?

His entire prison sentence is a temporary period.

 

[Yttrium]

I can agree with your sentiment here, Yttrium. The only thing is, as an annihilationist, I may or may not agree with your view of the final outcome when everything is said and done.

Well, you found a way to solve the contradiction, and I don't know what the final outcome is, so I'm not in a position to disagree with you.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, you found a way to solve the contradiction, and I don't know what the final outcome is, so I'm not in a position to disagree with you.

The irony is that my view on annihilationism didn't come by reconstruing Axiological intuitions but rather through applying Hermeneutics. So, to some extent, I'd still agree with ... *ahem* ... @gradyll's OP header statement. ... if it was true.

 

[holo]

goodness is not something that requires knowledge. True justice does rely on knowledge. The more knowledge you have regarding a case (as a Judge), the more just you can be. Granted you are also a good Judge

No, I mean how do you determine what is good and bad, right or wrong? If God does something, how do you know if it's good or bad?

so is this a biblical question? If not, then I refer to my logical case for eternal hell in the OP. Not that of one sin, but that of 30,000 sins. But if you wish to talk about the Bible, I ask that you pray for the holy spirit to give you eyes to see the scriptures, because without that, it's impossible for the natural man to understand. Hence your issue with one sin we get hell

If it boils down to "you can't understand it because you don't have the Spirit" then this entire discussion is probably pointless. How does one reconcile God being almighty with him not getting his will? How does one reconcile a loving god with a god who is going to torture his own creation without end? Maybe you're right that one needs supernatural help to understand it, because it definitely doesn't make sense in any other way.

He does know what they will choose, but again He never created them to die. He created them to live, but they chose death by free will. IF I wrote you a check for eternal life, and you didn't believe in the check, even though it was free you still would not be saved because you didn't believe the check was good. You sealed your own fate by lacking faith

Maybe, but if your goal was to give me eternal life, you should definitely just hand me that check and make sure I understood what it said, rather than hide it under a rock somewhere and hope I happened to find it.

If you were God, would you create a free society, or would you create robots that only did what you command? So too, God desired not to create robots and he created us free

I would've created a world without such an enormous potential for suffering. Sort of like Eden, only without the tree of good and evil. God saw that it was good. I would've left it at that.

Or, if I were God, I guess I'd just kill satan. I see no reason why I wouldn't.

Judas knew of all the miracles of Jesus, seen Him heal the blind, the lame, and the demon possessed dozens of times, he even seen the other disciples do the same in Jesus name. Yet He still chose to betray Christ for a bag of silver. People don't make the best choices, here is a link about free will that may be of more use to you and why people choose evil over good:
A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will’

I don't believe in free will at all (but that's a different topic I guess). In any case, someone who chooses hell over heaven obviously doesn't really know what he's doing.

Or they chose to make themselves ignorant of the topic. It's like a kid covering his face and thinking his parents don't see him. Just because you don't believe in prison, doesn't mean that if you commit murder you won't go there. Even if you never believed in prison until the day you showed up, the guards won't give a rip about your personal belief of the prison.

Sure, but to choose to make yourself ignorant, you have to know about the reality in the first place.

But you are correct, we should be preaching more on hell. I have done my part preaching about the reality of hell, and if you don't believe, that is on you.

Do you think it might be possible that if you don't convert someone, the problem lies with you and not with them?

our soul is massless and outside of time. Our thoughts are what governs our body, again your foot is not who is to blame for a hit and run DUI, just because it was on the gas peddle. You are to blame, because your mind is what sinned. Your body just obeyed what your mind commanded it to. So since your mind is eternal (because it is massless and beyond the time domain), it must be punished beyond the time domain, and in eternity. (I have said this numerous times and in numerous ways, I hope this is making sense to you).

I see your argument, but it still doesn't make sense. The punishment must fit the crime. Let's say that your body somehow lived forever. Would that mean that if you stole something, you must stay in jail forever? It simply doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't even resemble any kind of logic, much less justice.

 

[holo]

Jesus didn't go to hell because He never sinned.

But hell is the punishment for sin, and Jesus took that punishment, right? If he took MY punishment, then, well, he took that, and not something completely different.

However God designed a punishment for him

So he didn't take OUR punishment then.

But yes he was tortured, whipped with a cat of nine tails, which is a whip of 9 leather straps with bone embedded in the laces, which basically filleted his skin off his torso. Then he was crucified. Then he was forsaken by His father. This pre-designed torture, was sufficient for God to forgive the sins of the world.

If doing this to ONE person was sufficient to forgive the sins of the world, then how in the world can it be that most people must endure torture that is literally infinitely worse?

Also, I think you're confusing forgiveness and atonement. Sins can be either paid for or forgiven, not both.

 

[createdtoworship]

His entire prison sentence is a temporary period.

It was relitive to the prison sentence. Don't fool around. You can easily see your logic doesn't follow.

 

[Yttrium]

It was relitive to the prison sentence. Don't fool around. You can easily see your logic doesn't follow.

I'm not fooling around. The logic says that a fully loving God doesn't allow a great number of humans to suffer eternally. It's just that simple.

It doesn't matter if it's "relative to the prison sentence" (which doesn't make sense in the case of eternal torment), the sentence would have to end sometime, or God is not so loving.

 

[Yttrium]

I encountered someone in another forum site once who took a somewhat different approach from others who faced the contradiction. He claimed that God is not fully loving. In fact, he said that God is actually quite nasty and full of retribution, as shown in the Old Testament here and there, and we should all live in constant fear of His righteous wrath. I had to admit that his view seemed logically consistent, if depressing.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, I mean how do you determine what is good and bad, right or wrong? If God does something, how do you know if it's good or bad?

Well God put in our hearts a moral compass of what is right and wrong. See this thread: The Moral Argument (revamped)

If it boils down to "you can't understand it because you don't have the Spirit" then this entire discussion is probably pointless.

it doesn't, it's a logical coherent concept in every human heart. I won't talk about the moral law anymore in this thread, you must reply to the above thread for more information.

How does one reconcile God being almighty with him not getting his will?

because those are actually entirely different concepts. There is a permissive will of God, and a sovereign will of God. The sovereign will of God is always in God's favor, the permissive will of God can sometimes allow free will to rule over sovereignty. But it always ends badly for the person who over rules god's will.

How does one reconcile a loving god with a god who is going to torture his own creation without end?

this has been answered many times, I won't repeat it here. Loving people also means being Just and Holy in front of them. Even if you don't have a love for what is right or Holy.

Maybe you're right that one needs supernatural help to understand it, because it definitely doesn't make sense in any other way.

God actually hides the gospel from the natural man, just so that it will be incoherent to him, because if He under stood it, He may be saved. But if God doesn't want you saved, it will be confusing to you. That is why I always tell people to pray for God's mercy, and for Him to show Himself to you. But again, I have proven God's existence in the appropriate thread, check it out: Argument for God's existence.

Maybe, but if your goal was to give me eternal life, you should definitely just hand me that check and make sure I understood what it said, rather than hide it under a rock somewhere and hope I happened to find it.

you have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling the Bible says. Pray to God, humble yourself, repent of all known sin, and then come back as ask for me to tell you the Gospel. At that point you will be ready for it.

I would've created a world without such an enormous potential for suffering.

so you would have fallen short on the aspect of being perfectly just, you would have let sin slide, which is not honorable

Sort of like Eden, only without the tree of good and evil. God saw that it was good. I would've left it at that.

then you would have only robots in the garden of eden, no free will to choose evil. You would never ever know if your creation truly loved you for who you are, because you would have removed the ability to reject you.

Or, if I were God, I guess I'd just kill satan. I see no reason why I wouldn't.

Satan will be killed one day, but for now he is a vessel for dishonor to test mankind to sift those who have the resolve for christianity and those who don't.

I don't believe in free will at all (but that's a different topic I guess).

I gathered that much.

In any case, someone who chooses hell over heaven obviously doesn't really know what he's doing.

we make foolish choices all the time, do you think the person who has a hit and run DUI thought about the consequences before He got drunk? No.

Sure, but to choose to make yourself ignorant, you have to know about the reality in the first place.Do you think it might be possible that if you don't convert someone, the problem lies with you and not with them?

Yes it can lie with the christian. A refusal to properly tell the gospel message, can make the christian at fault. So you are correct. Most of christianity is afraid of verbalizing the true gospel for sake of rejection among peers.

I see your argument, but it still doesn't make sense. The punishment must fit the crime. Let's say that your body somehow lived forever. Would that mean that if you stole something, you must stay in jail forever? It simply doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't even resemble any kind of logic, much less justice.

well if you understand my argument, there is no need to verbalize it a tenth time. You don't like true Holy Justice, that is what it boils down to. And that is your prerogative.

 

[createdtoworship]

But hell is the punishment for sin, and Jesus took that punishment, right? If he took MY punishment, then, well, he took that, and not something completely different.

I am not sure hell would have the same affect on God. The punishment would not be the same. Our flesh is not as his flesh, He was resurrected and glorified, and death could no longer hurt him at that point. So hell would be a walk in the park to a glorified being that was God.

So he didn't take OUR punishment then.

you are correct, he didn't take the same punishment, but He did pay fully for our sins, He was tortured in ways that we would never know. One of the worst thing a person can go through is the torture of a loved one. Say if I wanted to really get to you, I would torture your kid, not you. That would horrify you. And that is what happened on the cross. A fate worse than hell.

If doing this to ONE person was sufficient to forgive the sins of the world, then how in the world can it be that most people must endure torture that is literally infinitely worse?

that one person was God. A perfect sacrifice.

Also, I think you're confusing forgiveness and atonement. Sins can be either paid for or forgiven, not both.

those are separate issues, the blood of calves and goats in the old testament covered sin, but did not remove sin. Jesus death because of the quality of the sacrifice, completely removed sin, it's known as justification.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm not fooling around. The logic says that a fully loving God doesn't allow a great number of humans to suffer eternally. It's just that simple.

It doesn't matter if it's "relative to the prison sentence" (which doesn't make sense in the case of eternal torment), the sentence would have to end sometime, or God is not so loving.

yeah it's that simple if you program a bunch of robots with no free will to accept or reject you. Free will is the more loving choice. What is more loving to put a lion in a circus to perform like a robot, for ticket money, or let the lion free to do as he likes in the plains of africa?

 

[createdtoworship]

I encountered someone in another forum site once who took a somewhat different approach from others who faced the contradiction. He claimed that God is not fully loving. In fact, he said that God is actually quite nasty and full of retribution, as shown in the Old Testament here and there, and we should all live in constant fear of His righteous wrath. I had to admit that his view seemed logically consistent, if depressing.

God is full of wrath, God is the same God of the old testament. I just read today that the arc of the covenant was being moved to king david's house and the cattle stumbled and the arc started to fall, a man put his hand out, and touched the arc, and God was angry and killed Him. Simply for touching a Holy artifact. That is God's personality. Fully Holy. But it was with the advent of His son that we start to see the gracious aspect of God. God killed His own flesh and blood, so that we could be saved. Imagine sacrificing your baby, for someone else. It wouldn't happen I tell you that much, I would never do it. I don't love people more than my own kids.

 

[Yttrium]

yeah it's that simple if you program a bunch of robots with no free will to accept or reject you. Free will is the more loving choice. What is more loving to put a lion in a circus to perform like a robot, for ticket money, or let the lion free to do as he likes in the plains of africa?

I'm afraid you've wandered off into some strange non-sequitur.