Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[createdtoworship]

What or who is forcing God to torture someone endlessly (or eternally or infinitely)?

What do you mean by "sin of the soul"?

If satan had all the power, what do you think he would do to people?

How is it fair to punish something that was done in time, outside of time (infinite punishment for finite crime)?

man you are starting to worry me.

I have been answering these questions repeatedly, just re read some of my posts.

 

[the iconoclast]

I'm sorry but anyone who actually believes that eternal torture in hell fire is justified is on the same level as ISIS.

And anyone who teaches this to children should be charged with child abuse.

Hey hey skreeper

 

[holo]

man you are starting to worry me.

I have been answering these questions repeatedly, just re read some of my posts.

If so I'm sorry, could you point me to where? I may have scrolled past those posts, but I can't recall you ever answering any of these questions.

 

[holo]

see you are still using words that describe time: "never" etc. That is not what eternity is.

But again, you're not answering my question: does it make a practical difference for the soul who is in hell, whether it's eternal or infinite? I think you understand what I mean.

 

[createdtoworship]

What or who is forcing God to torture someone endlessly (or eternally or infinitely)?

Justice (true justice is what forces God to torture souls)

What do you mean by "sin of the soul"?

all sin is done by our psyche, our soul, our emotions, our brain. It runs the software that our body (our hardware) operate with. So all sins are sins of the soul.

If satan had all the power, what do you think he would do to people?

Satan can kill people, but it is more useful to manipulate and deceive them so they can also promote an evil agenda. Mass deception, is what he would do. And He is doing that.

How is it fair to punish something that was done in time, outside of time (infinite punishment for finite crime)?

like I said before the soul is eternal because it is massless, and exists in a domain above the time domain. When our bodies die, our soul will live on. So when we sin physically, we sinned spiritually first and foremost. We sinned in eternity. So our punishment must also be in eternity.

 

[createdtoworship]

But again, you're not answering my question: does it make a practical difference for the soul who is in hell, whether it's eternal or infinite? I think you understand what I mean.

Yes very much so. To be in a prison that was millions and millions and millions of years long I think would be harsher than being in a hell that was simply beyond the time domain all together.

 

[holo]

Justice (true justice is what forces God to torture souls)

But surely you don't believe eternal punishment is a just punishment? I mean, if you lied to me and I responded by pulling out your fingernails and teeth and burning you alive, that wouldn't be justice, would it?

Satan can kill people, but it is more useful to manipulate and deceive them so they can also promote an evil agenda. Mass deception, is what he would do. And He is doing that.

If it was satan who had the power to do as he wished with your soul for eternity, what do you think he would do then?

like I said before the soul is eternal because it is massless, and exists in a domain above the time domain. When our bodies die, our soul will live on. So when we sin physically, we sinned spiritually first and foremost. We sinned in eternity. So our punishment must also be in eternity.

Just because you live forever doesn't mean any crime therefore must be punished forever. That's obviously not justice in any way, shape or form.

 

[holo]

Yes very much so. To be in a prison that was millions and millions and millions of years long I think would be harsher than being in a hell that was simply beyond the time domain all together.

I don't see how it would make a difference. In an infinite hell, you'll be suffering without end. In an eternal hell, you'll be suffering without end.

But it doesn't really matter which hell is worse. None of them entail anything remotely approaching justice.

 

[holo]

Yes very much so. To be in a prison that was millions and millions and millions of years long I think would be harsher than being in a hell that was simply beyond the time domain all together.

Oh and another thing. Jesus took the punishment for all sins of mankind, right? If that is true, then
a) Jesus has already paid for it, but most people will have to pay anyway, and
b) Jesus must be eternally in hell

Assuming you subscribe to the idea of Jesus' death as a substitute offering. I know there are other ways of understanding why he had to die.

 

[gaara4158]

ustice (true justice is what forces God to torture souls)

I think this might be blasphemy. Are you suggesting that justice transcends even God himself? I've never heard anyone say God could be forced to do anything.

like I said before the soul is eternal because it is massless, and exists in a domain above the time domain. When our bodies die, our soul will live on. So when we sin physically, we sinned spiritually first and foremost. We sinned in eternity. So our punishment must also be in eternity.

I'm trying to make coherent sense of this, so you can tell me if I've got this straight. Eternity to you doesn't mean forever extending into the past and future indefinitely. Eternity means wholly separate from the concept of time altogether. So far so good?

If so, then a punishment happening "in eternity" seems not to work. Let's say you're a soul in this eternal Hell. You cannot say you were tortured in the past, because without time there is no past. You cannot say you will be tortured in the future because without time there is no future. You cannot say you are being tortured right now because without time there is no present. So how can it be said that those who are tortured "in eternity" are really tortured at all? What is the difference between "never" and "eternity?" Both seem to mean "at no time."

In order for this concept to work, you would have to import some kind of meta-time which operates independently to the timeline we currently experience. There, you could coherently say that an infinite amount of time passes while no time at all passes in our dimension. This concept has been explored in literature, such as Stephen King's short story The Jaunt. But if you're going to do that, then your answer to Holo's question about the practical difference between an eternity there and an infinitude of time here must be "no, there is no practical difference." Because in either case, to the tortured soul it would simply feel like never-ending suffering.

 

[createdtoworship]

But surely you don't believe eternal punishment is a just punishment? I mean, if you lied to me and I responded by pulling out your fingernails and teeth and burning you alive, that wouldn't be justice, would it

this is the fallacy of equivocation. You equivocate the justice of a divine being who knows the thoughts of man, versus your justice (a man that does not have the ability to read the thoughts of man). Let me put it this way, if you were in a court trial and the evidence was against you, for doing a crime that you actually did, and the jury could read your thoughts, would you have a chance? No. But a normal judge would have to actually muster up loads of circumstantial evidence, and you may not even get punished.

If it was satan who had the power to do as he wished with your soul for eternity, what do you think he would do then?

He does have that power, and if he can drag us down to hell with him, that would be his optimal joy.

Just because you live forever doesn't mean any crime therefore must be punished forever. That's obviously not justice in any way, shape or form.

again you are using terms that explain time. Forever has the connotation of a lot of years stacked onto each other. That is not the case, the soul is outside of time. So punishing it inside of time, when it's crimes go into another dimension is not fair or just. The dimension in which the sin was committed, must also be the dimension in which the crime is paid for.

 

[holo]

this is the fallacy of equivocation. You equivocate the justice of a divine being who knows the thoughts of man, versus your justice (a man that does not have the ability to read the thoughts of man). Let me put it this way, if you were in a court trial and the evidence was against you, for doing a crime that you actually did, and the jury could read your thoughts, would you have a chance? No. But a normal judge would have to actually muster up loads of circumstantial evidence, and you may not even get punished.

No, I'm talking about the basic understanding of justice, not different ways of being on trial.

Again, if I burned you alive for telling me a lie, how could that in any sense be called justice?

He does have that power, and if he can drag us down to hell with him, that would be his optimal joy

And satan's will shall be done, for most of humanity at least. And in this case satan's will is indistinguishable from God's.

again you are using terms that explain time. Forever has the connotation of a lot of years stacked onto each other. That is not the case, the soul is outside of time. So punishing it inside of time, when it's crimes go into another dimension is not fair or just. The dimension in which the sin was committed, must also be the dimension in which the crime is paid for.

But the crime doesn't happen "in eternity", it happens in time, and in the world. And I still don't see any reason why one must be eternally tortured just because the soul is eternal.

 

[createdtoworship]

duplicate

 

[Yttrium]

I take a pretty simple view of things.

1. God is fully loving.
2. God allows a great number of humans to suffer eternally.

These two statements are contradictory. One or both must be false.

 

[createdtoworship]

I take a pretty simple view of things.

1. God is fully loving.
2. God allows a great number of humans to suffer eternally.

These two statements are contradictory. One or both must be false.

they are complimentary not contradictory.

allowing someone to suffer does not mean that he caused the suffering.

you didn't factor in free will.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, I'm talking about the basic understanding of justice, not different ways of being on trial.

Again, if I burned you alive for telling me a lie, how could that in any sense be called justice?

again you are commiting a fallacy of equivocation, you are saying that mans justice is the same as God's justice. You are saying if man does what God does, would it be just, and that is equivocation.

And satan's will shall be done, for most of humanity at least. And in this case satan's will is indistinguishable from God's.

Actually in the bible it says God desires "that all men be saved." And besides it logically does not makes sense, why would you create something for the soul purpose of torturing it. You must give it free will, offer them a choice, and fully honor their choice.

But the crime doesn't happen "in eternity", it happens in time, and in the world. And I still don't see any reason why one must be eternally tortured just because the soul is eternal.

only the sins of the flesh are done in the physical world. Thought sins are eternal, and every physical sin starts first as a thought. Let me illustrate, how can your arm wield a sword, and cut off someones head, if your brain does not command your muscle? So the ultimate sin is in the mind, that commanded the action. Similarly if you are a boss at work, and you command an employee to do something unwise, it is not that employee that is punished but the head of the department, as they were just following your orders. The soul is massless, every sin is done in eternity, only the manifestations of the sins are physical.

 

[Yttrium]

they are complimentary not contradictory.

allowing someone to suffer does not mean that he caused the suffering.

you didn't factor in free will.

I didn't say He caused the suffering. I said allows eternal suffering.

Free will would only get you into Hell. It wouldn't keep you there permanently if God is fully loving.

Not complimentary at all. Contradictory.

 

[createdtoworship]

I didn't say He caused the suffering. I said allows eternal suffering.

Free will would only get you into Hell. It wouldn't keep you there permanently if God is fully loving.

Not complimentary at all. Contradictory.

your argument is incoherent.

it makes no sense, the idea that free will only gets you into hell, but does not keep you there.

what if I was a witness to a burglary, and I testified in court that I saw a young Caucasian male, with blonde hair, and blue eyes, and I picked him out of a line up, and He was convicted,

would his free will be responsible for his entire prison sentence, or simply the first day?

 

[holo]

again you are commiting a fallacy of equivocation, you are saying that mans justice is the same as God's justice. You are saying if man does what God does, would it be just, and that is equivocation.

How do you determine that God is good, if you're not using your sense of morality/justice?

Actually in the bible it says God desires "that all men be saved."

Yes, and it also says God is almighty etc. It appears as if God, the most powerful entity imaginable, will the one whose will is least satisfied. He wants to save everybody, but he is forced to torture the vast majority of them endlessly. Even if they just committed one single sin before they died.

And besides it logically does not makes sense, why would you create something for the soul purpose of torturing it.

Why indeed. It's not like God wouldn't know what would happen to most of the souls he created.

You must give it free will, offer them a choice, and fully honor their choice.

He must? Why must he? And in any case, of course nobody would choose to spend eternity in hell. If anybody "chose" that, it's obviously because they didn't know what they were choosing.

only the sins of the flesh are done in the physical world.

What's a sin of the flesh?

Thought sins are eternal, and every physical sin starts first as a thought. Let me illustrate, how can your arm wield a sword, and cut off someones head, if your brain does not command your muscle? So the ultimate sin is in the mind, that commanded the action. Similarly if you are a boss at work, and you command an employee to do something unwise, it is not that employee that is punished but the head of the department, as they were just following your orders. The soul is massless, every sin is done in eternity, only the manifestations of the sins are physical.

So the manifestation, or consequence, of the sin is physical. Then it's reasonable that the punishment is also physical. As the principle in the bible goes, an eye for an eye. Not a leg for an arm, a life for a theft. The basic idea is that the punishment fits the crime.

Anyway I don't know what you mean by "thought sins are eternal." You don't think about one single thing for eternity. And also what about the good thoughts you've had, are they "eternal" too?

 

[holo]

The soul is massless, every sin is done in eternity, only the manifestations of the sins are physical.

If Jesus took our punishment upon himself, how is he not in hell eternally?