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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

  1. no hell does not exist

    50.0%
  2. no it just means death

    20.0%
  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

    10.0%
  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

    20.0%
  1. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member of the 'sexual deviancy club'

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    That sounds sounds all fine and peachy but then comes the issue of God throwing a hissy fit because his creation doesn't follow his rules like good little slaves.

    Maybe I don't want to spend eternity with my creator, maybe I have other priorities. Why is this such a huge issue for him? Aren't the millions of mindless followers he already has not enough?
     
  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid As I peer into the looking-glass, I ask... Supporter

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    You might have to (briefly) lead me through your hermeneutics so I can understand how you arrived at the interpretation of Jesus being severed from the God-head. Whichever verses or passages do you think are involved with this assertion?
     
  3. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid As I peer into the looking-glass, I ask... Supporter

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    I'd feel ashamed if I didn't apply the Hermeneutics Circle ... :dontcare:... but whatever!
     
  4. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    no that is your view of God, creating a world without freewill, those are the true slaves.

    Sir you have no argument from me, I know for a fact some people choose hell. And your a good example. The other poster does not believe people would choose hell, I hope it is okay that I use this post as a reference.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
  5. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    sir, when children read the plain scriptures, it's easy to believe in an eternal hell, because that is the plain, easy interpretation of the scriptures. If you complicate the scriptures, that is not really hermeneutics, is it?
     
  6. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    no thank you, that is not the topic of this thread, I have scriptural backing for it, but it's another topic.
     
  7. Yttrium

    Yttrium Active Member

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    In what way was that a refutation? You posted a strange rant about free will, as if that had anything to do with what I posted, and it didn't. Obviously people would have to have free will, or there would be no point to punishment in the first place. Why would you toss a robot in Hell?

    A lot of people make choices that deserve some degree of punishment. It make sense that a supreme being, if there is one, would take corrective action. However, the concepts of a fully loving God and a God who allows people to suffer eternally are contradictory concepts.

    Now, if you feel that God has plenty of wrath and is loving but not fully loving, then you don't have a contradiction. Or, if God ends the suffering at some point, after some kind of redemption is earned.
     
  8. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    well you would need to further explain why a God who sends people to hell is wrong. Not to mention most atheists don't believe in absolute moral truth to begin with, so I am humoring your personal contradiction here, how is it that God is absolutely evil for this action?
     
  9. Yttrium

    Yttrium Active Member

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    I didn't say that God sending people to Hell is wrong. I said that allowing them to remain there eternally is contradictory with a fully loving God. There's no contradiction with a fully loving God and a finite stay in Hell.

    Ignoring the "atheist" comment, you're jumping to a silly extreme from "not fully loving" to "absolutely evil". I mentioned that if God is loving, but not fully loving, then the contradiction goes away. God could not be evil in any case, because God would be the one who makes the moral rules in the first place.
     
  10. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    well I have answered this several times. briefly the points are that the soul is what does the sinning not the body. The body is the hardware, the soul is the software that runs the hardware. The hardware only does what it is told. So if a person kills another person, they are punished, maybe even put to death for that crime. God however looks at the soul, if the sin was done in the eternal realm it must be punished in the eternal realm. For example the soul does the sinning ,but the soul is massless, and according to general relativity time requires mass. So if you don't have mass, you don't accelerate or decelerate time. Time does not function without mass. So if the soul is eternal (and it appears to be, since it has no time), then the punishment must also be eternal. I don't like the infinite punishment for the finite sin, because those are both terms relating to time, and eternity is outside of time, so that illustration does not really fit.

    How could God be not fully loving versus totally evil, if according to your view he is punishing for ever something that was only done once. He would be a monster of Hell. Unless like I said, sins are eternal. That means that the sin can never be destroyed or removed. Unless a transaction is made, either eternal punishment, for an eternal crime, or another payment. I.E. Christ's death on the cross.
     
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid As I peer into the looking-glass, I ask... Supporter

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    Acknowledging the presence and use of the Hermeneutic Circle is NOT "complicating" the Scriptures, my dear brother in Christ! You should already know this if you've studied even Biblical Hermeneutics.
     
  12. Yttrium

    Yttrium Active Member

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    You have a unique rationalization for eternal punishment, but it doesn't solve the contradiction. However, it does explain why you feel that someone who doesn't get eternal punishment wouldn't be punished at all. You've set yourself up with an all-or-nothing situation. On the other hand, I don't see how the soul would experience the suffering if it experiences no time at all, in which case there would be no punishment, which obviously couldn't be the case. It seems to me that a lack of time for the soul in Hell refutes itself.

    Again, God would be the one writing the moral standards, so God could not be evil. God could certainly seem monstrous by our human standards for allowing people to suffer eternally, but God could still be loving, in a limited fashion. For example, a parent could be loving of some children and not others, or loving of a child up until the point that the child misbehaves too much.
     
  13. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member of the 'sexual deviancy club'

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    If everyone I know and love is in hell, why would I choose to go someplace else? The real torment would be spending eternity in heaven with the knowledge that you abandoned your loved ones.
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I use plain hermeneutics. If the plain sense, makes sense, seek no other sense.
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    the soul is outside of time, yet it can perform many actions. So I don't see your point.
     
  16. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    I suppose because your burning alive, in a lake of fire? I don't know about you, but I would rather not bet tortured than spend time with the family in hell.
     
  17. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid As I peer into the looking-glass, I ask... Supporter

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    And please forgive me if I say that as complex as the Bible is in it's various literary genres and in its various multi-cultural settings through time, your statement, reflective as it is of various of my fellow Christian communities, makes little sense.

    It would have been better if you could have at least: 1) cited a few places in the bible that actually directly support your 'plain reading' axiom, OR 2) cited your main book source by which you learned to do biblical hermeneutics. But, I realize that is asking a lot of imperfect people living in an imperfect world.

    At this point, I will desist from further engagement with you, unless you expand your interpretive horizon, brother Gradyll. No hard feelings; it's just that you're putting up a road block in our interlocution here, and I have little desire to jump over it.

    Blessings!
     
  18. Yttrium

    Yttrium Active Member

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    You want to have it both ways. The soul has no time, so punishment is eternal (but the soul wouldn't have time to experience it). But the soul can perform actions (so the soul would have time to experience the punishment). Well, I'll just let it go at that, since we're not going to make any progress. I just wanted to understand your point of view on the topic. And I do understand it, although I consider it to be illogical.
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    The fact that you are questioning the plain reading of the Bible brings serious questions as to the tactics you use. You make the assumption that God didn't mean what He said in the bible, which is a dangerous position. For example if God said, we are saved by grace through faith, and your hermeneutic means that we are not to take the bible literally, then our very salvation is in jeapordy, as one could question the very words of the Gospel. For example if I say to you that there is a literal eternal hell described in the Bible, and you say it's not literal. That what it to keep the skeptic browsing this thread from saying, "if Hell isn't literal, then why is heaven literal?" I am sorry if I don't even view that as a valid form of hermeneutics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  20. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Sir can you prove that because something is outside of time (not affected by time, and thus time is not necessary), that it cannot perform actions? This is an unproven assumption.
     
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