Establish The Law

[HIM]

That is probably on me as she and I have been going back and forth for days now.

I had deleted the insolent child out of another post. opps lol.... Sorry @Clare73 that was not meant for you there. It must of stayed with me even though I deleted it from another post.

 

[Clare73]

Wow! And you have?
"the law of commandments in ordinances"
nomos entole en dogma
"the law of the commandments in decrees" (Gr: dogma = doctrine, ordinance (Eph 2:15, Col 2:14), decree (Lk 2;1 Ac 16:4, 17:7)
At that time the Jewish sages and teachers had created a wall of dogma=doctrines and interpretations of the law that had completely separated themselves from the ability to attain the righteousness of the law by faith.

You do not have a NT understanding of OT law.
Righteousness has never been by law (Ro 3:20), it has always been by only by faith (Gal 3:11, Ge 15:6).
The law was never given to make righteous, it was given only to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

And somehow you think that your dogmatic assertions have not created the same level of division within the body of Christ

Would that be the same level of division created by Paul is his opposition to the false brothers who required circumcision for salvation (Gal 1:6-9, Gal 2:4-5, 2 Co 11:26)?

1: you are the student of dogma! Academic study of theology provides nothing more than indoctrination to a set of man made beliefs that run counter to a walk of faith in the Spirit, which is illumination.

You set your personal illumination against the word of God written? Well what could possibly go wrong there?
What contempt for the holy word of God written. This is not of the Holy Spirit. He wold never set himself against his own word written!

Your insistence that the Law of God stands in opposition to faith runs contrary to apostolic doctrine.

Your ignorance of salvation by faith alone, not by works of the law (Eph 2:8-9) speaks for itself.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,
not being mixed with faith in those who heard.

Which refers to the unbelief of the Israelites who refused to go into Canaan in Nu 14.

Faith is walking in obedience to the Spirit, and insures that we fulfill the law in our words and actions.
The Law stand (is established) by faith, manifesting the word written on our hearts.

The law is established by God, which in the NC
is written on our hearts (Heb 8:81-12),
is fullfilled in love of neighbor (Ro 13:8),
is summed up in one rule (Ro 13:9),
whose fulfillment is love (Ro 13:10)

The idea that you would come on a forum thread and declare yourself a teacher, and those who disapprove of your sayings
as unworthy students strikes me as bizarre.

And this is declared and stated where?

You should remind yourself of what we have been taught.
James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Romans 10:[/COLOR]3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ”
(that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach)

Should you also remind yourself of what we have been taught?

I hope you know what Paul is quoting from, because the Law of Moses informs exactly how to interpret the law by faith,
which is by prayer and receiving from the Spirit, now more so than before. There is no opposition to the Law by faith,

There is opposition to the law by faith in salvation, which is by faith alone, not by works of the law (Eph 2:8-9).
And opposition also in justification, which is by faith alone, apart from works (Ro 3:28).

there is only "the opposition of knowledge, falsely so called". For "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
Your self-proclaimed authority as a teacher has only proven your dogmatic position.

Still looking for where that is stated.

Galatians 5:3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

You haven't even come close to grasping the message of the OP, but have pursued your own purposes, de-railed the
thread, and have not displayed any of the grace in which we STAND=histemi=establish.

What message? What purpose? The OP presents only Scripture.
Why do you object to my discussing Scripture? All Scripture is in agreement with itself, right?

Show me your faith without works, I will show you my faith by my works of faith.

Nowhere is faith devoid of works, but those necessary works of true faith have no part in salvation (Eph 2:8-9) nor justification (Ro 3:28)

What I hear from the Lord during my devotions I present to the Body in these threads. Your posts reek of academia.

Whence this contempt for study of the Scriptures? It certainly is not Biblical. In fact, the Bible is in opposition to it in 2 Tim 2:15.
Indeed, I hope my posts reek of study of God's word, in the context and the light of all Scripture.
What I hear from the Lord in his word written is what I present here.

Yours is a stunning and disturbing contempt for and unseating of the word of God written as the authority for Christian belief (2 Tim 3:16), replacing it with personal devotional impressions.

This is NOT of the Holy Spirit. . .a good review of Jesus' attitude toward the word of God written is in order.

 

[Minister Monardo]

You do not have a NT understanding of OT law.
Righteousness has never been by law ( 3:20), it has always been by only by faith (Gal 3:11, Ge 15:6).
The law was never given to make righteous, it was given only to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

I know all these things. The point is that you are not addressing the OP. HOW do you stand by faith apart from works of the Law?
Name it, claim it? Quoting scriptures? No comment from you on standing by faith in the full armor of God? Is that inapplicable.?
You are completely wrong in saying that I don't have a NT understanding of OT Law.

Would that be the same level of division created by Paul is his opposition to the false brothers who required circumcision for salvation (Gal 1-6-9, 2;4-5, 2 Co 11:26)?

More off topic trash talk. When was circumcision, or coming under the Law ever mentioned. I made it clear, it is by walking in the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And this is declared and stated where?

I will let @Gary K, point that out, since it is in your responses to him in which you assert your authority and superiority as a teacher.

Should you also remind yourself of what we have been taught?
[quote I hope you know what Paul is quoting from, because the Law of Moses informs exactly how to interpret the law by faith,
which is by prayer and receiving from the Spirit, now more so than before. There is no opposition to the Law by faith,

And there is likewise opposition to the law by faith in salvation, which is by faith alone, not by works of the law (Eph 2:8-9).
And there is in justification, which is by faith alone, apart from works (Ro 3:28).
[/QUOTE]
Why would I need to be reminded, you are like a broken record. I know all these things, and yet you offer no acknowledgment to the Lord, who is the Holy Spirit, and His role in leading in this fulfillment of the Law. You quote scriptures that we are very familiar from Romans and Ephesians,
but ignore the practicalities, as if all these claims are automatic because you profess Christ. You are among many who routinely quote Ephesians 2:8,9 but exclude and offer no explanation of verse 10.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
So, since you want to include Eph 2 in your equation, what are these good works, and how are we to walk in them???

Nowhere is faith devoid of works, but those necessary works of true faith have no part in salvation (Eph 2:8-9 ) nor justification (Ro 3:28)

What do you think justification is, some theological definition of "declared not guilty? Or is it knowing that your works are done in the Lord?
In Christ! You make no mention of the Body of Christ. You don't think this is a part of salvation? Be warned,
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

However, the NT is not in agreement with your distaste for study of the word of God written.
In fact, it opposes it in 2 Tim 2:15.
And indeed, I hope my posts reek of study of God's word, in the context and light of all Scripture.
What I hear from the Lord is his word written I present here.

Yours is a stunning and disturbing unseating of the word of God written as the authority for Christian belief (2 Tim 3:16),
replacing it with personal devotional impressions.

Everything I state I support with scriptures from the Old and New Testaments. All scripture is profitable. When you say study, are you referring to time spent alone with the Lord and His Word in prayer, or teachings of men? Are you educated in Theology? Are you well read? Do you own a library of works of the "respected theologians"? You can keep that to yourself.
You cannot cite a single quote of mine to support your assertions. And you have yet to address the scriptures quoted in the OP, or follow-up responses. You quote the same few scriptures used to support the "faith without works" argument used for 1000 years.
Righteousness by faith is not a thought process, it is justified actions done in obedience to the Spirit. You have never presented this truth.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

How do we do this, please? By quoting your scriptures of choice, ignoring other relevant verses that demand more than
"the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it".

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have work.” Show me your faith without your works,
and I will show you my faith by my works.

Galatians 5:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again, how is this done?

 

[Gary K]

You do not have a NT understanding of OT law.
Righteousness has never been by law (Ro 3:20), it has always been by only by faith (Gal 3:11, Ge 15:6).
The law was never given to make righteous, it was given only to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

Would that be the same level of division created by Paul is his opposition to the false brothers who required circumcision for salvation (Gal 1:6-9, Gal 2:4-5, 2 Co 11:26)?

You set your personal illumination against the word of God written? Well what could possibly go wrong there?
What contempt for the holy word of God written. This is not of the Holy Spirit. He wold never set himself against his own word written!

Your ignorance of salvation by faith alone, not by works of the law (Eph 2:8-9) speaks for itself.

Which refers to the unbelief of the Israelites who refused to go into Canaan in Nu 14.

The law is established by God, which in the NC
is written on our hearts (Heb 8:81-12),
is fullfilled in love of neighbor (Ro 13:8),
is summed up in one rule (Ro 13:9),
whose fulfillment is love (Ro 13:10)

And this is declared and stated where?

Should you also remind yourself of what we have been taught?

There is opposition to the law by faith in salvation, which is by faith alone, not by works of the law (Eph 2:8-9).
And opposition also in justification, which is by faith alone, apart from works (Ro 3:28).

Still looking for where that is stated.

What message? What purpose? The OP presents only Scripture.
Why do you object to my discussing Scripture?

Nowhere is faith devoid of works, but those necessary works of true faith have no part in salvation (Eph 2:8-9 ) nor justification (Ro 3:28)

Whence this contempt for study of the Scripture? It certainly is not Biblical. In fact, the Bible is opposition to it in 2 Tim 2:15.

Indeed, I hope my posts reek of study of God's word, in the context and light of all Scripture.
What I hear from the Lord in his word written is what I present here.

Yours is a stunning and disturbing contempt for and unseating of the word of God written as the authority for Christian belief (2 Tim 3:16), replacing it with personal devotional impressions.

This is NOT of the Holy Spirit. . .a good review of Jesus' attitude toward the word of God written is in order.

I know Mr. M is very capable of defending his own point of view, but thought your distortion of scripture needed to be answered right away.

Mr. M is not relying on the law for salvation any more than I do. We trust in Jesus to supply both the motivation and the power to obey. That's the only way obedience can be accomplished. God ptomised this in the OT.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

You will not like that quote but I have a question for you. Does God love the Jews more than He loves we Gentiles?

 

[Clare73]

I know all these things. The point is that you are not addressing the OP. HOW do you stand by faith apart from works of the Law?

Your OP presented no topic, only Scripture.

And now you have set out to elevate personal illumination over the the word of God written.

You do not have Jesus' attitude toward Scripture, to wit:

Jesus believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Mt 15:6, Lk 5:1, Lk 11:28, Jn 10:35),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).
Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).
Belief in the authority and truth of the OT was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

Galatians 5:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again, how is this done?

There is no walking in the Spirit that is not in absolute agreement with all the word of God written, for the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself in his word written.
All Scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16). Your personal impressions do not enjoy that authority.

 

[Clare73]

I know Mr. M is very capable of defending his own point of view, but thought your distortion of scripture needed to be answered right away.
Mr. M is not relying on the law for salvation any more than I do. We trust in Jesus to supply both the motivation and the power to obey. That's the only way obedience can be accomplished. God ptomised this in the OT.
You will not like that quote but I have a question for you. Does God love the Jews more than He loves we Gentiles?

God loves his elect above all, both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Clare73]

So you say. I am getting the idea that you don't like me or my beliefs.

It's not personal, don't take it personally.

But your views are exceedingly contra-Biblical.

It's hard to imagine how someone could get so Biblically misinformed.

 

[Clare73]

That is what you got from that? Wow! You are way to combative.

I have spoken to you in times past and don't remember you being this way. I pray if you are going through something it lightens.Take care.

What I am going through is denial of the word of God written in this thread.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Your OP presented no topic, only Scripture.

And now you have set out to elevate personal illumination over the the word of God written.

You do not have Jesus' attitude toward Scripture, to wit:

Jesus believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Mt 15:6, Lk 5:1, Lk 11:28, Jn 10:35),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).
Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).
Belief in the authority and truth of the OT was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

There is no walking in the Spirit that is not in absolute agreement with all the word of God written, for the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself in his word written.
All Scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16). Your personal impressions do not enjoy that authority.

 

[Minister Monardo]

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[Clare73]

That is what you got from that? Wow! You are way to combative.

If I misunderstood you, and you were not expressing some objection in the context of the conversation, then please explain the point you were making that I may correct my understanding.

I have spoken to you in times past and don't remember you being this way. I pray if you are going through something it lightens.Take care.

 

[Gary K]

God loves his elect above all, both Jew and Gentile.

Then why don't you believe that God makes it possible for Gentiles to keep His statutes and judgments and do them?

 

[Gary K]

It's not personal, don't take it personally.

But your views are exceedingly contra-Biblical.

It's hard to imagine how someone could get so Biblically misinformed.

I'm not misinformed, I follow what scripture teaches.

 

[Gary K]

What I am going through is denial of the word of God written in this thread.

Then you should stop denying the word of God in this thread.

 

[Soyeong]

There are two laws spoken of in Romans 3 i.e. verse 27, one law it requires "works" and one requires "Faith", these were of the two covenants.

So, what Paul is saying that the Law that requires "works" is uphold by the Law of "Faith"..

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is the law of faith.

Faith is expressed as being a doer of the law and as being justified, but being a doer of the law does not result in being justified. So having faith, being a doer of the law, and being justified are all linked such that if one of those three is true of someone, then the others are also true, and if one of those three is not true of someone, then the others are also not true. In other words all of those who have faith are also doers of the law and are being justified, all of those who are doers of the law also have faith and are being justified, and all those who are being justified also have faith and are doers of the law. This is how Paul can say both that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), which is because only doers of the law have faith, while also denying that we can earn our justification as the result of being a doer of the law (Romans 4:1-5). Likewise, this is how Paul can that we are justified by faith without being the result of being a doer of the law while also saying that the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed by being a doer of the law, so being justified by faith does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law (Romans 3:27-31).

 

[Soyeong]

No, there are two principles of justification spoken of in Ro 3:27-28: faith and law, and they are mutually exclusive.
To rely on one is necessarily to deny the other.

Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so while there is a law that that faith is mutually exclusive with, there is also a law that our faith is in accordance with, just as there is a law that is not of faith (Galatians 3:10-11) and a law that our faith upholds (Romans 3:31). God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed while it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but should not rely on what He has instructed. Someone can take actions in obedience to God's law because they are relying on Him to correctly guide us and it is because of their reliance on God that they are justified or because the are trying to earn a wage from Him, in which case they will not earn their justification because justification is not something that can earned even through perfect obedience. Through our obedience we can't obligate God to owe us anything, but we can't express faith through our obedience, and by that faith we are justified.

The reference verse being Ro 3:27.

In salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9), the law is opposed to faith, in that salvation is by faith only, not by works, lest anyone should boast (Eph 2:8-9).

While Ephesians 2:8-10 denies that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works, it does not deny that our salvation requires us to do works for other reasons, such as faith, but rather part of our salvation is being made new creations in Christ to do good works.

 

[Clare73]

Then why don't you believe that God makes it possible for Gentiles to keep His statutes and judgments and do them?

God enables all believers, Gentile and Jew, to walk in the obedience of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

Then you should stop denying the word of God in this thread.

After you.

 

[Clare73]

Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so while there is a law that that faith is mutually exclusive with, there is also a law that our faith is in accordance with, just as there is a law that is not of faith (Galatians 3:10-11) and a law that our faith upholds (Romans 3:31). God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed while it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but should not rely on what He has instructed. Someone can take actions in obedience to God's law because they are relying on Him to correctly guide us and it is because of their reliance on God that they are justified or because the are trying to earn a wage from Him, in which case they will not earn their justification because justification is not something that can earned even through perfect obedience. Through our obedience we can't obligate God to owe us anything, but we can't express faith through our obedience, and by that faith we are justified.


While Ephesians 2:8-10 denies that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works, it does not deny that our salvation requires us to do works for other reasons, such as faith, but rather part of our salvation is being made new creations in Christ to do good works.

Indeed! Obedience in the Holy Spirit leads to righteousness leading to holiness Ro 6:16, 19).

 

[Gary K]

After you.

You don't recognize a sense of humor when you see one? My comment was not meant to put you down.