Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Biblewriter]

Thanks.

You did, however, neglect to include the final two sentences of Jerome's commentary regarding Apollinarius:

"Moreover this same Apollinarius asserts that he conceived this idea about the proper dating from the fact that Africanus, (p. 549) the author of the Tempora [Chronology], whose explanation I have inserted above, affirms that the final week will occur at the end of the world. Yet, says Apollinarius, it is impossible that periods so linked together be wrenched apart, but rather the time-segments must all be joined together in conformity with Daniel's prophecy."

From other commentary by contemporary authors, it appears that Apollinarius' dating and methodology considered the 70 weeks to be contiguous, with the final week corresponding to the end of the world, at a date very approximately two centuries in the future from when he wrote. There is thus some similarity to the methodologies of Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

We know that the 70 week end dates postulated by all of these brethren passed uneventfully.

Thank you. I had missed that detail.

 

[Biblewriter]

The saints in Revelation 20 lose nothing. But your eschatology calls for the to be deceived by Satan and to attack the rest of the believers towards the end of the 1000 years. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom so you have no other choice, as misguided as it is.

This would only be correct if your unfounded claim that only the resurrected will be in the Millennium were correct. But many explicitly stated scriptures show that this is not correct.

 

[Riberra]

NO, rather, we know that their theory that it would all end in the earth's six thousandth year was erroneous. This was 100% pure interpretation, not based upon a single statement of scripture. All such baseless interpretations are sure to fail.

Like the erroneous interpretation of the parable of the fig tree associating the creation of the Apostate State of Israel in 1948 to an imaginative time frame of 40 years which was later stretched to 70 years ....you who promoted such misinterpretation of scripture should hide in shame.

 

[Biblewriter]

Daniel's 70th week is about Christ, not antichrist. So in essence, all of what you believe calling Jesus the Antichrist is a lie.

The only outright lie I have seen in this thread, is your claim that we make Christ out to be the Antichrist.

 

[Biblewriter]

Like the erroneous interpretation of the parable of the fig tree associating the creation of the Apostate State of Israel in 1948 to an imaginative time frame of 40 years which was later stretched to 70 years ....you should hide in shame.

Please cite the post in which I am alleged to have made such a claim as this.

 

[Dave L]

The only outright lie I have seen in this thread, is your claim that we make Christ out to be the Antichrist.

This you do when you assign Jesus' role to antichrist in Daniel 9.

 

[Dave L]

This would only be correct if your unfounded claim that only the resurrected will be in the Millennium were correct. But many explicitly stated scriptures show that this is not correct.

Find any other than the saints. The rest of the dead did not live until AFTER the 1000 years. This leaves only glorified saints for Satan to deceive.

 

[jgr]

NO, rather, we know that their theory that it would all end in the earth's six thousandth year was erroneous. This was 100% pure interpretation, not based upon a single statement of scripture. All such baseless interpretations are sure to fail.

Contrast those with the interpretive success which is confirmed by historical fulfillment.

 

[DavidPT]

Keep in mind that Jesus abolished the sacrifices on the cross but they continued as an empty form until 70 AD. And Antichrist (Nero and later the Papacy) was already present in John's' day. But you should not turn Jesus into Antichrist in Daniel 9 as you attempt to do here.

I don't dispute Jesus did that. But is that what Daniel 9:27 is in regards to though? I would be more inclined to conclude it is meaning in regards to Christ if there wasn't this mention of abominations in that same context, where it then appears to match with the context of that in Daniel 11:31 as well.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

And arms shall stand on his part---why can't this be referring to the people of the prince meant in Daniel 9:26? Do not both involve a sanctuary?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

And why can't this be the prince meant in Daniel 9:26?

 

[Dave L]

I don't dispute Jesus did that. But is that what Daniel 9:27 is in regards to though? I would be more inclined to conclude it is meaning in regards to Christ if there wasn't this mention of abominations in that same context, where it then appears to match with the context of that in Daniel 11:31 as well.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

And arms shall stand on his part---why can't this be referring to the people of the prince meant in Daniel 9:26? Do not both involve a sanctuary?

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

And why can't this be the prince meant in Daniel 9:26?

Because Jesus is good in Daniel 9 and the Antichrist, or Antiochus according to some in Daniel 11 is utterly wicked.

 

[DavidPT]

Find any other than the saints. The rest of the dead did not live until AFTER the 1000 years. This leaves only glorified saints for Satan to deceive.

No it doesn't if there are mortal survivors, which then means they were never killed once Jesus returns to begin with. Zechariah 14 clearly shows there are mortal survivors who weren't also killed with the rest of those killed that came against Jerusalem. If there are no mortal survivors post the 2nd coming though, yes, then you have a solid valid argument, and I would be inclined to agree with you here if that were the case.

 

[Dave L]

No it doesn't if there are mortal survivors, which then means they were never killed once Jesus returns to begin with. Zechariah 14 clearly shows there are mortal survivors who weren't also killed with the rest of those killed that came against Jerusalem. If there are no mortal survivors post the 2nd coming though, yes, then you have a solid valid argument, and I would be inclined to agree with you here if that were the case.

But flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

 

[BABerean2]

No it doesn't if there are mortal survivors, which then means they were never killed once Jesus returns to begin with. Zechariah 14 clearly shows there are mortal survivors who weren't also killed with the rest of those killed that came against Jerusalem. If there are no mortal survivors post the 2nd coming though, yes, then you have a solid valid argument, and I would be inclined to agree with you here if that were the case.

How do you get mortals living after the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46?

Please show us mortals surviving the end of the passage, based on the verse below.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


After you have completed the impossible task above, show us how to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others.

Then show us how the Book of Revelation is in perfect chronological order, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in chapter 19.

.

 

[claninja]

Yet none of that matters though, in regards to Daniel 9:26 and 27. The city and the sanctuary are destroyed during the 70th week itself. The only way that can be logical, there has to be a gap between the 69th and 70th week

Well it really depends on one's view of scripture. Is this a 'Cross' centered prophecy, or this a 'temple destruction' centered prophecy. If it is Christ centered, it can be 70 consecutive weeks of years. If it is a 'temple destruction' centered prophecy, then the 70 weeks of years are symbolic.

The first question we should ask is, " are there any scriptures that point to the fulfillment of 6 points of Daniel 9:24?"

Daniel 9:24 Seventy ‘sevens’c are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1. finishd transgression, 2. to put an end to sin,3. to atone for wickedness,4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,5. to seal up vision and prophecy and 6. to anoint the Most Holy Place.e

1. Finish transgression:
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
2. Put an end to sin:
Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself
3. atone for wickedness:
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people
Hebrews 10:12 when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness:
Romans 3:21-22 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith inh Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile
1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption
5. To seal up vision:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
6. To anoint the most holy:
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.
________________________________________________________________________________

For a Cross centered interpretation, Daniel 9:26-27 would have to be Hebrew parallelism.

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Itsf end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

equals

Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,g and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolate one.”

In other words:

after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing :EQUALS: he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,g and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering

and

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Itsf end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed :EQUALS: And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolate one.”


Notice that the 70th week includes the messiah being cut off, the confirmation of a covenant, and the end of the sacrifices and offerings. IF this is a Cross centered prophecy, then the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled at the Cross of Jesus Christ. The sanctuary and city destruction are then not required to be within the 70th week in order to fulfill any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24

However, this interpretation is only possible if the prophecy is indeed 'Cross' centered.

 

[DavidPT]

How do you get mortals living after the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46?

Please show us mortals surviving the end of the passage, based on the verse below.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


After you have completed the impossible task above, show us how to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others.

Then show us how the Book of Revelation is in perfect chronological order, since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in chapter 19.

.

Yet this totally ignores what is stated in Zechariah 14 though. Either Zechariah 14 is holy Scripture as well, or someone made a mistake by adding it in with the other holy Scriptures included in our Bibles. These things therefore have to be understood in such a way that there are no contradictions. We may have to start another one of those Zechariah 14 threads in order to try and get to the bottom of some of these things.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yet this totally ignores what is stated in Zechariah 14 though. Either Zechariah 14 is holy Scripture as well, or someone made a mistake by adding it in with the other holy Scriptures included in our Bibles. These things therefore have to be understood in such a way that there are no contradictions. We may have to start another one of those Zechariah 14 threads in order to try and get to the bottom of some of these things.

Here is one. It even has a poll thread.
Wanna bump it up?

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/zechariah-14.7757966/#post-63547448

Has Zechariah 14 already been fulfilled, or will it be fulfilled in the future?

Zechariah 14 NIV - The LORD Comes and Reigns - A day of - Bible Gateway

Has Zechariah 14 already been fulfilled, or will it be fulfilled in the future?

1. Already fulfilled
2. Will be fulfilled

 

[Biblewriter]

Find any other than the saints. The rest of the dead did not live until AFTER the 1000 years. This leaves only glorified saints for Satan to deceive.

I have already posted numerous scriptures that explicitly state that during this future time there will still be birth, death, and marriage, as well as both sickness and sin. The fact that you choose to ignore all these scriptures is trivial.

 

[DavidPT]

Here is one. It even has a poll thread.
Wanna bump it up?

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/zechariah-14.7757966/#post-63547448


Has Zechariah 14 already been fulfilled, or will it be fulfilled in the future?

1. Already fulfilled
2. Will be fulfilled

Some of those posts are from 2013. Are all of those posters still here and available to address any questions asked of them, in regards to their conclusions they are arriving at per their posts? Or is it ok to basically to start afresh in the thread and therefore disregard any posts from years earlier?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some of those posts are from 2013. Are all of those posters still here and available to address any questions asked of them, in regards to their conclusions they are arriving at per their posts? Or is it ok to basically to start afresh in the thread and therefore disregard any posts from years earlier?

Just reply to the OP then the thread can go from there.
A lot of new members here may be interested in some of the posts and respond to them, even if the member is long gone........

 

[ebedmelech]

Well then: where's your proof of a seven year period after the Messiah was cut off? His Crucifixion, then with one half spent, [3 1/2 years] sacrifices and offerings will be stopped......

All I can tell you is read the passage...it's not that hard to understand unless you're preconceived.