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Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Riberra

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I'm not Preterist. But I agree with Amillennialism up to the point where they turn the kingdom into the visible institutional church. Christ's body of believers IS the church and Israel. But as I originally said, all millennial theories err by making the kingdom physical, which scripture amply refutes.
The resurrection will provide you a immortal physical body...thus you will live in a physical place ...not in Heaven.

How do you interpret Matthew 6:9-13 if you believe that is not talking about the Kingdom YET TO COME...

Matthew 6:9-13 King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 
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Dave L

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How do you interpret Matthew 6:9-13 if you believe that is not talking about the Kingdom YET TO COME...

Matthew 6:9-13 King James Version (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Jesus began preaching the gospel of the kingdom, saying it was at hand. Also he told the Pharisees the kingdom had overtaken them because his casting demons out with the finger of God proved it. He also said that from the days of John the Baptist, the violent were taking the kingdom by force (persecution).

But he also taught the restoration of Israel that only the Father knew the time of. And the restoration of Israel is to happen on the last day in the resurrection of the dead. Believers in Christ are biblical Israel and will be resurrected and raptured into the New Heavens and earth on the last day.

So you bet, we pray thy kingdom come, when all will be restored. (in depth scripture of this available if needed).
 
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DavidPT

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I'm not Preterist. But I agree with Amillennialism up to the point where they turn the kingdom into the visible institutional church. Christ's body of believers IS the church and Israel. But as I originally said, all millennial theories err by making the kingdom physical, which scripture amply refutes.


Thanks for bringing this up. Unfortunately it slipped my mind as to your position over all, as disclosed in the OP. I keep assuming anyone not Premil that it basically makes them Amil then. Also, I wasn't saying you were a Preterist, but that you seem to be Preterist in some of your thinking. Events that I see as not already fulfilled, but you instead seeing these same events as already fulfilled, that would be Preterist in your thinking, meaning from my perspective of how I see you viewing some of these things as opposed to how I might. Where in my case I would be Futurist in my thinking.
 
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Riberra

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Believers in Christ are biblical Israel and will be resurrected and raptured into the New Heavens and earth on the last day.
Nobody is ''raptured'' to Heaven at the resurrection....Jesus will bring with Him the SOULS of the DEAD BELIEVERS who are in Heaven [SLEEP IN JESUS]---->to be resurrected HERE ON THE EARTH.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about it.
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I'm not Preterist. But I agree with Amillennialism up to the point where they turn the kingdom into the visible institutional church. Christ's body of believers IS the church and Israel. But as I originally said, all millennial theories err by making the kingdom physical, which scripture amply refutes.
Nice post......If I could prove Gog, Magog and Armegeddon was one and the same event, and that the Parousia/2nd coming happens before the 1000yr period, I would probably turn full preterist.

How about this?

Physical Israel?

Revevelatin 12:1
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars [12 tribes?].

Ezekiel 8:3 shows us who is symbolizing the "woman" in Revelation 17:3.....for those with ears to hear and eyes to see.......put aside all preconceived carnal views and let the Spirit guide you........

Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.

[Revelation 17:3]

Reve 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/allusions-in-revelation-from-old-testament.7588850/
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

 
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Dave L

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Thanks for bringing this up. Unfortunately it slipped my mind as to your position over all, as disclosed in the OP. I keep assuming anyone not Premil that it basically makes them Amil then. Also, I wasn't saying you were a Preterist, but that you seem to be Preterist in some of your thinking. Events that I see as not already fulfilled, but you instead seeing these same events as already fulfilled, that would be Preterist in your thinking, meaning from my perspective of how I see you viewing some of these things as opposed to how I might. Where in my case I would be Futurist in my thinking.
Something else that might help understand my position is that I hold to a recapitulation view of Revelation. (this is the position of the oldest commentary on Revelation;Victorinus of Pettau (c. 300 CE) According to Adela Yarbro Collins, “Book of Revelation,” in David Noel Freeman, ed., The Anchor Bible Dictionary (New York, NY: Doubleday, 1996, c1992), 5:696.)

So I don't read Revelation chronologically, but as seven views of the same things. Much like the gospels give four views of the same things. More if interested.
 
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Dave L

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Nobody is ''raptured'' to Heaven at the resurrection....Jesus will bring with Him the SOULS of the DEAD BELIEVERS who are in Heaven [SLEEP IN JESUS]---->to be resurrected HERE ON THE EARTH.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about it.
13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
 
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Dave L

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Nice post......If I could prove Gog, Magog and Armegeddon was one and the same event, and that the Parousia/2nd coming happens before the 1000yr period, I would probably turn full preterist.

How about this?

Physical Israel?

Revevelatin 12:1
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars [12 tribes?].

Ezekiel 8:3 shows us who is symbolizing the "woman" in Revelation 17:3.....for those with ears to hear and eyes to see.......put aside all preconceived carnal views and let the Spirit guide you........

Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.

[Revelation 17:3]

Reve 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten. [Ezekiel 8:3]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/allusions-in-revelation-from-old-testament.7588850/
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
Keep in mind, when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, he abolished physical unbelieving Israel. This left only believers who accepted Christ as biblical Israel.
 
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Riberra

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“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
There is no mention that Jesus return to Heaven with someone after the resurrection.... The Caught Up [Rapiemur]is just a transportation to meet Jesus to where Jesus will be at His Coming Ie in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR OVER THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO.

When Jesus will descend from Heaven that will be to establish His Kingdom on The Earth.
 
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Dave L

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There is no mention that Jesus return to Heaven with someone after the resurrection.... the Caught Up is just a transportation to meet Jesus to where Jesus will be at His Coming Ie in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR OVER THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO.
This happens on the last day where all believers enter the new heavens and earth,
 
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Riberra

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This happens on the last day where all believers enter the new heavens and earth,
The New Heaven and New Earth Revelation 21 is mentioned to Happen AFTER The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, THUS AFTER THE 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth....
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So I don't read Revelation chronologically, but as seven views of the same things. Much like the gospels give four views of the same things. More if interested.
You read my mind.

If I start a thread on that, would you be willing to participate in it?

Genesis 41:
25 And Joseph saith unto Pharaoh, ‘The dream of Pharaoh is one: that which God is doing he hath declared to Pharaoh;
32
"And-on to be repeated of the dream unto Pharaoh twice, that being established the matter from-with the Elohiym, and making Haste the Elohiym to do of it."

Revelation 1:1
A revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And He-said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

I saw this similarity not too long ago and haven't really delved deeper into it.
But it looks to me that Reve 6:16 could be looking at the event from land:

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face/proswpou <4383> of the One-sitting/kaqhmenou <2521> (5740) upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

And this could be the same event looking down from heaven. I know it is a stretch, but I am going to study on this more:

Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne.
And the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) on it, from Who's Face/proswpou <4383> fled the Land and the Heaven
and Place not was found to-them.
 
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Dave L

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The New Heaven and New Earth Revelation 21 is mentioned to Happen AFTER The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, THUS AFTER THE 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth....
The great white throne judgement happens on earth's last day. And believers enter the New Heaven and Earth in the Resurrection and Rapture. The wicked enter the lake of fire. Scripture places this on earth's last day, not 1000 years from earth's last day. If it did, then you would know when the end of the world would happen. And only the Father knows this.
 
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Riberra

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The great white throne judgement happens on earth's last day. And believers enter the New Heaven and Earth in the Resurrection and Rapture. The wicked enter the lake of fire. Scripture places this on earth's last day, not 1000 years from earth's last day. If it did, then you would know when the end of the world would happen. And only the Father knows this.
The Return of Jesus will be the last day of this present World SYSTEM dominated by Satan since the fall of Adam and Eve.

Proved by the fact that Satan will not be able to deceive the Nations again during 1,000 years...

Revelation 20:1-2
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The Return of Jesus will be the last day of this present world dominated by Satan since the fall of Adam and Eve.

Proved by the fact that Satan will not be able to deceive the Nations again during 1,000 years...Revelation 20
Sounds good to me.

"Parousia" mentioned 24 Times
only 4 times in Gospels, all in Matt 24

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times. Matt 24:3; Phil 1:26; 2 Thess 2:1,8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times. Matt 24:27, 37, 39; 1 Corin 15:23, 16:17; 2 Corin 7:6,7, 10:10; Phil 2:12; 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 5:23; 2 Thess 2:9; James 5:8, 1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times 1 thess 4:15; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:12

Matthew 24:3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us! when shall these be? and what? the sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);
 
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DavidPT

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Something else that might help understand my position is that I hold to a recapitulation view of Revelation. (this is the position of the oldest commentary on Revelation;Victorinus of Pettau (c. 300 CE) According to Adela Yarbro Collins, “Book of Revelation,” in David Noel Freeman, ed., The Anchor Bible Dictionary (New York, NY: Doubleday, 1996, c1992), 5:696.)

So I don't read Revelation chronologically, but as seven views of the same things. Much like the gospels give four views of the same things. More if interested.


I think there could be validity to the recapitulation view. I don't totally discount it. I don't know if it proves the thousand years can't be meaning post the 2nd coming though. IMO I presented ample evidence in recent posts proving the time meant for the thousand years have to be post the 2nd coming. If someone wants to go through those posts and show why I'm incorrect to conclude what I did, I'm all for that. If in my mind I think I'm arriving at the correct conclusions based on what the texts in question add up to, why should I think otherwise if no one is able to show me via what I submitted, why and how the conclusions I arrived at are incorrect?
 
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claninja

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To add to what you said. Maybe you will agree with the following, maybe you won't, I don't know.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

IMO this is referring to Revelation 20:4.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Look at the following parts side by side. The KJV pretty much translates them identically.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

Who could argue, that in Revelation 20:4 'them' are not referring to the saints of the most High? If those who reign with Christ a thousand years are not the saints of the most High, who and what are they then?

In Daniel 7 look where it places the timing of verse 22.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

IOW, the chonology is thus----the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came

What happens once the Ancient of days comes? This----and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Let's now compare with Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Therefore---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---during the 42 month reign of the beast. That places Daniel 7:22 after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, which in turn places the time of Revelation 20:4 after the 42 month reign of the beast as well since Revelation 20:4 is referring to the same events as Daniel 7:22.

But we have to fully ignore and throw away all of this undeniable evidence, if we are to accept a position such as Amil instead.

Premils can prove their position from both testaments, Amils can't. Amils pretty much base their conclusions on the NT alone, and apparently, in their minds, anything the NT ALONE says automatically trumps anything the OT and NT combined says. That's what we are dealing with when we are dealing with a position such as Amil.

1.) Notice satan is bound, however, not yet destroyed.
Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
Jesus destroyed "the works" of the devil by the cross, but not the devil himself:
1 John 3:8-10 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
Jesus bound the strong man when he came:
mark 3:27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.
Satan can no longer deceive those out of the nations that God has saved:
Ephesians 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Notice Paul even states that satan was not destroyed yet, but that he soon would be:
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

2.) During this time that satan is bound, the first resurrection occurs. Those who partake in the 1st resurrection, reign with Christ as priests of God. Notice the verb tenses; John saw those who HAD been beheadED, who HAD not worshipED the beast, not receivED it mark, but LivED and reignED with Christ. In other words, John was seeing the souls of those HAD lived and reigned with Christ. Then notice the promise for anyone who does partake in the 1st resurrection: they will (future tense) be priests of God:
Revelation 20:4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Anyone who has been born again has partaken of the 1st resurrection (dead to sin, made alive with Christ), and the 2nd death has no power.
Ephesians 4-5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved
Already at the time of Peter, the body of Christ was a royal priesthood for God:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light


 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The New Heaven and New Earth Revelation 21 is mentioned to Happen AFTER The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, THUS AFTER THE 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth....
Looks like it to me. So what's the problem?
 
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DavidPT

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How about the texts you are trying to ignore, like 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18, and Revelation 16:15-16?


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What about the texts you say I am ignoring? The texts I have presented, why don't you feel they prove what I allege? How can Daniel 7:22 be meaning after the time of the beast in Revelation 13, but that Revelation 20:4 can't? Do not both texts involve being overcome, and in some cases, killed by this same beast in Revelation 13? Is or is not that beast this same little horn in Daniel 7?
 
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