Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[seventysevens]

Wrath:

3709. orge or-gay' by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

Luke 21
22 because these are days of vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things that have been written. [Daniel 12:1]
23 ‘And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck, in those days;
for there shall be great distress on the land, and wrath<3709> on this people; [Revelation 11:18]
24 and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, [Reve 13:10]
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.

Strong's Number G3709 matches the Greek ὀργή (orgē), which occurs 36 times in 34 verses
Used in 5 verses of the Gosples

That exact form of #3709 is used 1 time in Revelation:

Revelation 11
18 and the nations were angry<3710>, and Thine anger/wrath<3709> did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints,
and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.’

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away. [Luke 21:23]
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

I can show far more than that , but show scripture that GOD IS ANGRY WITH JESUS
show scripture that God placed Wrath on Jesus - can you not understand the most basic fact of the bible - without the shedding of pure sinless blood no person can be saved - the nonsense to even suggest that God is angry with Jesus is preposterous
the nonsense to think that man can be saved without Jesus shedding HIS innocent Blood for the remission of sins is preposterous , this is just ridiculous

 

[Revealing Times]

You are claiming something you cannot prove from scripture. If so, you would have done it by now. There is no pre-trib rapture. Only Paul's rapture that follows the resurrection of the dead.

No I am speaking about something you can't understand because you have tunnel vision like a lot of people I know. That PRIDE is too important. You keep teaching people what you teach them, then you will learn the truth when you get to heaven.

 

[Revealing Times]

I can show far more than that , but show scripture that GOD IS ANGRY WITH JESUS
show scripture that God placed Wrath on Jesus - can you not understand the most basic fact of the bible - without the shedding of pure sinless blood no person can be saved - the nonsense to even suggest that God is angry with Jesus is preposterous
the nonsense to think that man can be saved without Jesus shedding HIS innocent Blood for the remission of sins is preposterous , this is just ridiculous

You might as well leave it, these guys are they type that will never see. Its just not in them to see these deeper things of God, you are just wasting your time.

 

[συνείδησις]

You might as well leave it, these guys are they type that will never see. Its just not in them to see these deeper things of God, you are just wasting your time.

Deeper things? You guys don't even understand the cross and you know deeper things? LOL

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) Matthew 27:46​

 

[Douggg]

Wrath:

3709. orge or-gay' by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

Luke 21
22 because these are days of vengeance<1557>, to fulfill all things that have been written. [Daniel 12:1]
23 ‘And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck, in those days;
for there shall be great distress on the land, and wrath<3709> on this people; [Revelation 11:18]
24 and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, [Reve 13:10]
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.

Strong's Number G3709 matches the Greek ὀργή (orgē), which occurs 36 times in 34 verses
Used in 5 verses of the Gosples

That exact form of #3709 is used 1 time in Revelation:

Revelation 11
18 and the nations were angry<3710>, and Thine anger/wrath<3709> did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints,
and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.’

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away. [Luke 21:23]
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

Here's what happened. Jesus speaking after he has returned to the earth (sometime before the present generation's 70 years is up, nlt 2037).

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

 

[Douggg]

GOD became human for the PURPOSE of sacrifice , without doing so you would never see God in heaven , never , Jesus IS 100% GOD and 100% human at the same time ! to say that God put wrath on Jesus is saying that GOD put wrath on GOD - foolish to the nth degree !

slight refinement but important comment to what you wrote...
God added to His being God to also becoming a man.

 

[συνείδησις]

Here's what happened. Jesus speaking after he has returned to the earth (sometime before the present generation's 70 years is up, nlt 2037).

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Are you saying that that prophecy is about the future and not referring to Israel's destruction in 722 BC?

 

[Douggg]

Are you saying that that prophecy is about the future and not referring to Israel's destruction in 722 BC?

Exactly. Ezekiel 39 is end times. The first 16 verses are about Gog/Magog attack and destruction of Gog's army.

Then the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. Then the end of the 7 years in verses 17-20, the Armageddon destruction, matching Revelation 19:17-18.

Then Jesus himself speaking in verse 21, having returned to earth, and just executed judgment on them gathered to make war on him. verse 25 is the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31.

Gog/Magog
then the 7 years
Armageddon

I hope to win you over.

 

[seventysevens]

Deeper things? You guys don't even understand the cross and you know deeper things? LOL

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) Matthew 27:46​

Obviously you do not understand what happened there - RT is right you don't understand these things

 

[Douggg]

...

wait a minute...... 119, 565 posts ? that's amazing. If it were only 119, 564..... not so much

 

[Revealing Times]

Deeper things? You guys don't even understand the cross and you know deeper things? LOL

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) Matthew 27:46​

Says the one who is confused by what Jesus actual said there. God left Jesus all alone on the Cross because God can not be in the Presence of Sin, and our sins were upon Jesus.

And you don't understand that, but have the audacity to try to correct someone who does. Too funny.

 

[keras]

You might as well leave it, these guys are they type that will never see. Its just not in them to see these deeper things of God, you are just wasting your time.

Its what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies.
People can read the whole Bible and establish the fact that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth.
But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth, they listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers, and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any Judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not.
So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible.
The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

 

[Dave L]

No I am speaking about something you can't understand because you have tunnel vision like a lot of people I know. That PRIDE is too important. You keep teaching people what you teach them, then you will learn the truth when you get to heaven.

Even Tim LaHaye and John Walvoord admit in writing no direct biblical support for the pre-trib rapture exists. I posted direct quotes from their writings above in Post #291.

These are the pre-trib rapture heavy-weights. And they cannot provide direct links to scripture, so how can you?

 

[Dave L]

Martyred tribulation saints. Them who become Christians after the resurrection/rapture, who refused to worship the beast or his image.

All of these in 3 1/2 years? Also, have you considered flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom? This means only saints in glorified bodies makeup the kingdom after Christ returns.

 

[seventysevens]

Even Tim LaHaye and John Walvoord admit in writing no direct biblical support for the pre-trib rapture exists. I posted direct quotes from their writings above in Post #291.

These are the pre-trib rapture heavy-weights. And they cannot provide direct links to scripture, so how can you?

Imagine that some criminal breaks into your home and assaults your wife and steals your laptop and your phone , and you report the crime to the police , and they ask can you prove it really was Jon Doe ? Do you have it caught on videotape? and you tell them no you do not have a video tape , and they tell you , sorry dude nothing we can do for you .
Most people would respond saying , get a CSI Team here and check for fingerprints , look for evidence such as hair , blood etc
If the Police tell you that if you do not have video proof there is nothing they can do for you , you'd expect them to do an in-depth forensic investigation

Point is that is how you have to study the scriptures as there is a difference between the plain and simple and the mysteries of God , just as in forensic investigation can lead to finding the proof that is needed in a police investigation , it also needs to be done with the more in-depth and controversial topics in the bible - but some folks will not put in the effort to do this , if it can not be found in a simple verse , they will say it cannot be found , which is why I made a comparison to other topics that are not spelled out in simplistic fashion - to some people if the facts don't jump off the page , they will not seek them out
There is no 1st grade level scripture that teaches on the rapture , but truth is there about how to know when it happens , people who depend on authors and preachers to tell them are often in the dark because they choose not to search the scriptures , you want the answer to be jumping off the page or to you it is not there ,
In contrast to you not understanding this - there are people in this forum, that whine and bellyache everyday , day after day for months and months about a temple to be built in Israel , only because they do not understand why a temple will be built
they complain about a temple to be built , a most unproductive waste of time and energy whining about something they will never have any influence on , if you are unwilling to put forth the time it takes to understand the matter , you will not understand , and with you not understanding you have no chance of convincing people who do understand to view things the way you do

 

[ubicaritas]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

I don't think that critique applies to Lutheran theology so much. Luther is fairly explicit that the Kingdom of God is within the heart.

 

[Dave L]

Imagine that some criminal breaks into your home and assaults your wife and steals your laptop and your phone , and you report the crime to the police , and they ask can you prove it really was Jon Doe ? Do you have it caught on videotape? and you tell them no you do not have a video tape , and they tell you , sorry dude nothing we can do for you .
Most people would respond saying , get a CSI Team here and check for fingerprints , look for evidence such as hair , blood etc
If the Police tell you that if you do not have video proof there is nothing they can do for you , you'd expect them to do an in-depth forensic investigation

Point is that is how you have to study the scriptures as there is a difference between the plain and simple and the mysteries of God , just as in forensic investigation can lead to finding the proof that is needed in a police investigation , it also needs to be done with the more in-depth and controversial topics in the bible - but some folks will not put in the effort to do this , if it can not be found in a simple verse , they will say it cannot be found , which is why I made a comparison to other topics that are not spelled out in simplistic fashion - to some people if the facts don't jump off the page , they will not seek them out
There is no 1st grade level scripture that teaches on the rapture , but truth is there about how to know when it happens , people who depend on authors and preachers to tell them are often in the dark because they choose not to search the scriptures , you want the answer to be jumping off the page or to you it is not there ,
In contrast to you not understanding this - there are people in this forum, that whine and bellyache everyday , day after day for months and months about a temple to be built in Israel , only because they do not understand why a temple will be built
they complain about a temple to be built , a most unproductive waste of time and energy whining about something they will never have any influence on , if you are unwilling to put forth the time it takes to understand the matter , you will not understand , and with you not understanding you have no chance of convincing people who do understand to view things the way you do

You cannot justify your Pre-Trib Rapture position from the New Testament. It is not there or Paul or the others would have mentioned it. And since it affects eschatology, it adds to the book of Revelation. Christ threatens those who do this.

 

[Dave L]

I don't think that critique applies to Lutheran theology so much. Luther is fairly explicit that the Kingdom of God is within he heart.

The problem is, all of the "visible institutional churches" used amillennialism to murder innocent non-conformists. The church is the body of Christ, believers only.

 

[ubicaritas]

The problem is, all of the "visible institutional churches" used amillennialism to murder innocent non-conformists. The church is the body of Christ, believers only.

We don't pretend to be a church of the pure. Only Jesus is pure.

 

[seventysevens]

You cannot justify your Pre-Trib Rapture position from the New Testament. It is not there or Paul or the others would have mentioned it. And since it affects eschatology, it adds to the book of Revelation. Christ threatens those who do this.

It IS there , but you are blinded so you cannot see it , Paul did speak of it - THAT IS the Point , but to you if it is not said in a black/white elementary manner you cannot see it - this is a deeper topic that is not leaping off the page , it is a Mystery revealed - It really does not matter if you believe it or not for that will not change the fact that it is there