Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[seventysevens]

I can show direct quotes from scripture

You made the false statement but cannot prove it true and so now you are trying to turn the tables but I don't need to prove anything until you first prove what you alleged

 

[JesusForAll]

Wow. Dispensationalism at its worst.

 

[Dave L]

The Bible clearly teaches a Pre-trib Rapture. You can not even have a Revelation chapter 19 without a Pre-trib Rapture.

Being WITH THE LORD doesn't mean what you think it means, it means being in the PRESENCE of Gods Spirit continually forever, we only have glimpses of that on earth, we need refilling, some lose their salvation etc. etc. At the time of the Rapture we will be in the PRESENCE of Gods Spirit forevermore, just like God WALKED WITH Adam, before Adam sinned. We will return with Jesus from Heaven on White Horses (which only represents a CONQUERING JOURNEY), to defeat the Beast, his minions and to lock up Satan in the bottomless pit. I think we the Bride the go back to Heaven to finish the New Jerusalem while the BEHEADED of Rev. 20:4 stay ON EARTH to rue with Christ 1000 years, thus when New Jerusalem Descends it is called the Bride of Christ because we are in it while it descends.

The Pre Trib Rapture is the only type of Rapture that can be imminent, the Second Coming is A KNOWN EVENT, it will happen 1260 Days to the day after the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem. It will be understood to be on the way, we will see the Seven Vials COUNTED DOWN, when the 6th Vial Arrives (The Gathering of the Armageddon Armies) everyone on earth knows what is coming next except the dead, it will be Jesus landing on the Mt of Olives !! So how can anyone be surprised by that brother ? The Rapture Event of Matthew 24:36-51 is when two will be in the field, and one will be taken and one will be left, of course this was just a demonstration, it could be 50 left and ONE TAKEN (few there be that finds the way). But there could be 2 In a Field and ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT, its still a truth. There could be a field with 50 LEFT and ONE TAKEN if you catch my drift, its just a demonstration.

The Rapture and the SECOND COMING are not nor could the be the same event. The Wheat are ISRAEL they remain ON EARTH the TARES are the Wicked of Satan, the grow together until THE END.......the Church is Raptured and returns with Christ Jesus, SEE rev. 19.

Please produce scripture saying there is another rapture before the one Paul mentions.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52)

“For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15)

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

Remember not to add to Revelation or take away. And not one passage teaches the pre-trib rapture view.

 

[Dave L]

You don't understand fundamental l basics , you seem to operate like unto street fighting where you attack at will without provocation just because you think you are right even though you can't prove it - I operate like unto the judicial system that says "innocent until PROVEN guilty " while the defense will have a defense support it is not necessary to present it UNTIL the accuser has officially presented their case . Making an accusation is Not presenting a case , In every courtroom in America it is ALWAYS the accuser Must Prove their case in order to win - NOT just merely accusing , You made an allegation and I have have asking you to prove what you say ever since and you have not shown anything at all to prove your case - which shows you don't have a case at all , Nothing more than an accusation

Myself could care less if you choose not to believe , as it matters not to me at all what you choose to believe - I simply expect you to prove what you say to be true
The whole premise on which you operate is nothing more than make an accusation
There is no single scripture that says Father , Son and Holy Spirit are all God ,

You do not understand WHY a rapture happens . which is why don't understand the topic

How can not having scripture to support your claim be "fundamental basics"?

 

[JesusForAll]

How can not having scripture to support your claim be "fundamental basics"?

If they were speaking I’d consider it diarrhea of the mouth. It’s diarrhea of the fingers I guess. A lot of talk with no substance.

 

[Douggg]

This is all human conjecture. It does not harmonise with Paul.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

It does harmonize.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

____________________________________________________________

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1Thessalonians 4:18)

 

[seventysevens]

How can not having scripture to support your claim be "fundamental basics"?

I am very familiar with your nonsense tactics , as I have debated with atheists many times , they always want physical proof of a God in heaven , but refuse evidences that creation provides
You made the allegation , it is your responsibility to prove what you allege , so you will endlessly ignore the fact that you have to prove what you allege , if someone does not give what You define then you will not accept it , that is all on you , don't care if you don't accept it , no one said you had to ..But fact still stands that you made a claim that you can't support as all you have is your opinion of how you choose to read it , even atheists have an opinion , just conjecture , opinions are not facts

 

[Revealing Times]

You can resolve this by simply quoting any scripture that mentions a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib "rapture".

If the "pre-trib Rapture" is biblical, it should have scripture directly supporting it. And no such scripture exists.

For starters, you don't seem to understand that the Rapture has nothing to do with the Israel but everything to do with the Gentile Church (which has a few Jews in it because Israel was only Blinded IN PART) thus there is not much about it at all in the Old Testament save a few vague points of reference. Then Paul says, I TELL YOU A MYSTERY......The Greek word Musterion means SECRET by Gods Silence, thus God had a reason to keep it a secret, and He had a reason to reveal it unto Paul, the Rapture was for the Gentile Church, thus Paul was given the understanding BECAUSE he was the Disciple unto the Gentiles as he stated, thus it starts to become clear when one uses logic, the Disciple unto the Gentiles was given the MYSTERIOUS/SECRET RAPTURE !!

So your THEORY about there being a lots of "SCRIPTURES" on this subject clashes with what Paul tells us, this was a SECRET AND MYSTERIOUS understanding that God seemingly only gave unto Paul the Disciple unto the Gentiles, of course if you are wise enough via the Holy Spirit you can see it in other places and you thus have to deduce information and put it all together. Like Revelation ch. 19, no one can read Rev. 19 and not see the Church in Heaven Marrying the Lamb while the Beast and his Minions are STILL ON EARTH awaiting the Armageddon Battle with Jesus, unless they are in denial. Likewise, before the First Seal is Broken in Heaven we see the Church in Heaven with their (OUR) White Robes on in Rev. 5:9. These tell-tale signs are elementary To be honest.

I don't have the time to go through all of this right now but David R. Reagan has a good article on this that is concise and to the point, he uses scriptures all along the way to reference his understandings, which I agree with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The below is, By Dr. David R. Reagan

The Rapture
What is it? Who will it affect? When is it most likely to take place.

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church.

The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The Term
The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.”

So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”

Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.”

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52).

Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

A Summary
To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.”

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[Revealing Times]

Pre-Wrath Rapture
A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan.

This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.

Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.

The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9).

Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’ time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated. (Armageddon)

Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).

The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.

Paul’s Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).

There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).

Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).

In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.

Escapism?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning?

Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.

If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God”(Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).

If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).

 

[Douggg]

what do you believe 'sleeping' in christ means? how does one sleep and live together with christ?

"sleeping" in christ means that a person has died and their soul has gone to be with the Lord. The body is what "sleeps". The soul is alive, and never dies.

When the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 takes place, the souls of past Christians accompany Jesus to that glorious event and will be reunited with their resurrected bodies; and the living translated, both changed to their eternal incorruptible bodies - and go with Jesus to heaven, to always be with the Lord. As the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

At the end of the great tribulation, they will return to this earth with Jesus to reign and rule upon the earth with Him, serving Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

For starters, you don't seem to understand that the Rapture has nothing to do with the Israel but everything to do with the Gentile Church (which has a few Jews in it because Israel was only Blinded IN PART) thus there is not much about it at all in the Old Testament save a few vague points of reference. Then Paul says, I TELL YOU A MYSTERY......The Greek word Musterion means SECRET by Gods Silence, thus God had a reason to keep it a secret, and He had a reason to reveal it unto Paul, the Rapture was for the Gentile Church, thus Paul was given the understanding BECAUSE he was the Disciple unto the Gentiles as he stated, thus it starts to become clear when one uses logic, the Disciple unto the Gentiles was given the MYSTERIOUS/SECRET RAPTURE !!

So your THEORY about there being a lots of "SCRIPTURES" on this subject clashes with what Paul tells us, this was a SECRET AND MYSTERIOUS understanding that God seemingly only gave unto Paul the Disciple unto the Gentiles, of course if you are wise enough via the Holy Spirit you can see it in other places and you thus have to deduce information and put it all together. Like Revelation ch. 19, no one can read Rev. 19 and not see the Church in Heaven Marrying the Lamb while the Beast and his Minions are STILL ON EARTH awaiting the Armageddon Battle with Jesus, unless they are in denial. Likewise, before the First Seal is Broken in Heaven we see the Church in Heaven with their (OUR) White Robes on in Rev. 5:9. These tell-tale signs are elementary To be honest.

I don't have the time to go through all of this right now but David R. Reagan has a good article on this that is concise and to the point, he uses scriptures all along the way to reference his understandings, which I agree with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The below is, By Dr. David R. Reagan

The Rapture
What is it? Who will it affect? When is it most likely to take place.

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church.

The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The Term
The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.”

So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”

Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.”

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52).

Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

A Summary
To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.”

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

Not even the elite rapturists can find direct support for the rapture in scripture. One of my favorite Tim LaHaye quotes was from his book No Fear of the Storm. He said "One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

Also Direct Quote from Walvoord in his first publication of The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH: n.d., 1957, p.148),

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement: "Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation." The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either. Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the second advent. The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place. It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation llluslrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

 

[Dave L]

It does harmonize.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

____________________________________________________________

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1Thessalonians 4:18)

God poured out his wrath on Jesus in our place on the cross. How do you explain this?

“After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)

“Then one of the elders asked me, “These dressed in long white robes—who are they and where have they come from?” So I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!” (Revelation 7:13–14)

 

[Dave L]

I am very familiar with your nonsense tactics , as I have debated with atheists many times , they always want physical proof of a God in heaven , but refuse evidences that creation provides
You made the allegation , it is your responsibility to prove what you allege , so you will endlessly ignore the fact that you have to prove what you allege , if someone does not give what You define then you will not accept it , that is all on you , don't care if you don't accept it , no one said you had to ..But fact still stands that you made a claim that you can't support as all you have is your opinion of how you choose to read it , even atheists have an opinion , just conjecture , opinions are not facts

If Lahaye, Walvoord and others cannot support the pre-trib rapture theory with scripture, I don't know who can.

 

[JesusForAll]

Geez guys, come on.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
All I see is more rehashing of man-made church doctrine on dispensationalism. A bunch of conjecture with snippets of scripture that is taken out of context.

How about using scripture to prove scripture rather than taking it out of context and putting yours or someone else’s spin on it. Or cutting and pasting some bogus teaching on this post that no one is going to take time to study anyway. I read through it recognize it’s the same old same old.

I don’t know why it’s so hard to just read God’s word and believe it for what it says. It’s truth, why wouldn’t you want to believe it?

I hear this crap in most of the church today, it makes no sense, it never has made sense.

 

[Dave L]

Geez guys, come on.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
All I see is more rehashing of man-made church doctrine. A bunch of conjecture with snippets of scripture that is taken out of context.

How about using scripture to prove scripture rather than taking it out of context and putting yours or someone else’s spin on it. Or cutting and pasting some bogus teaching on this post that no one is going to take time to study anyway. I read through it recognize it’s the same old same old.

I don’t know why it’s so hard to just read God’s word and believe it for what it says. It’s truth, why wouldn’t you want to believe it?

I hear this crap in most of the church today, it makes no sense, it never has made sense.

You should support your claims with scripture. Otherwise it's just emotion.

 

[seventysevens]

God poured out his wrath on Jesus in our place on the cross. How do you explain this?

Absolute Nonsense , one of the Most Ridiculous things anyone has ever said - no wonder you don't understand - God pours out His wrath on Himself ? Ludicrous to the core is the nicest way to put it , total insanely lack of all sensibility

Jon10
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

You seem to subscribe the same as verse 19 ,20

 

[JesusForAll]

There is no pre tribulational rapture.
When you’re resurrected that’s it, Christ has come. So watch and be ready!

There won’t be a partial coming in the sky and taking the church then he goes back up to work on “Israel”. There won’t be a chance for “Israel” to repent and be saved in some 7 year “tribulation” and on and on and on...

What are doing for Christ now? Because you won’t be hanging out in the air while the crap goes down on earth.

 

[JesusForAll]

You should support your claims with scripture. Otherwise it's just emotion.

Yeah I was actually speaking to the pre-trib people trying to prove it with snippets of scripture.
Plus I made claim to any certain theology.

 

[seventysevens]

There is no pre tribulational rapture.
When you’re resurrected that’s it, Christ has come. So watch and be ready!

There won’t be a partial coming in the sky and taking the church then he goes back up to work on “Israel”. There won’t be a chance for “Israel” to repent and be saved in some 7 year “tribulation” and on and on and on...

What are doing for Christ now? Because you won’t be hanging out in the air while the crap goes down on earth.

If you believe that then go for it , you certainly are not doing anything positive here , being intentionally disrespectful is NOT of Christ !

 

[Revealing Times]

Not even the elite rapturists can find direct support for the rapture in scripture. One of my favorite Tim LaHaye quotes was from his book No Fear of the Storm. He said "One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

Also Direct Quote from Walvoord in his first publication of The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH: n.d., 1957, p.148),

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement: "Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation." The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either. Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the second advent. The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place. It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation llluslrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

You just keep on living with your false assumptions brother, but we all have to answer for how we led others during our lifetimes. Closing your eyes to the facts don't change the facts. I see these types all the time, they can never receive of God because they already understand everything, SADLY.