Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

It IS there , but you are blinded so you cannot see it , Paul did speak of it - THAT IS the Point , but to you if it is not said in a black/white elementary manner you cannot see it - this is a deeper topic that is not leaping off the page , it is a Mystery revealed - It really does not matter if you believe it or not for that will not change the fact that it is there

There are no Direct Scripture References supporting the pre-trib rapture. You are on the same footing as any other cult that reads into scripture things that are not there.

 

[Dave L]

We don't pretend to be a church of the pure. Only Jesus is pure.

But unbelievers do not belong to the church, which is the Body of Christ. Institutional churches are packed to the gills with them.

 

[Douggg]

All of these in 3 1/2 years? Also, have you considered flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom? This means only saints in glorified bodies makeup the kingdom after Christ returns.

Just as side note, Dave, the term 3 1/2 years is not found in bible prophecy. The 1260 days would be exactly half of the 7 years would be the closest thing. But the other two terms - 42 months and the time, times, half times are used because those don't equate to exactly 1260 days. I know mathematically they do. But not in way they are used in bible prophecy.

Okay, to the large number in Revelation 7. It reflects the scale of death that will take place in the great tribulation. Jesus said if those days were not shortened (limited) no flesh would survive.

When Jesus returns, the souls of those saints in Revelation 7 will get their eternal resurrected bodies at the start of the 1000 years reign in Revelation 20:4. Revelation 7 is not the resurrected/raptured saints, but them who become Christians afterward, and die during the great tribulation.

It is the resurrected/raptured Christians - takened earlier, before the great tribulation begins (when the abomination of desolation is placed in the temple) who will be returning with Jesus in their glorified eternal bodies.

Which the question then becomes - what kind of bodies do them in Revelation 7 have then? I don't know. The souls will apparently have some sort of body to be perceptible for John to have seen them. Not enough information to elaborate on though.

Apart from Christians before, after, and during the great tribulation - when the Kingdom of God is brought to earth, there apparently will be a number (not enough information to know how many) who are not Christians, who will survive, and will continue into the millennium. They will be part of the re-population, along with Christians who live through it.

There will still be the same nations - continue into the millennium, from what it says in Zechariah 14, regarding attending the feast of tabernacles, and in Daniel 7 about the three beasts allowed to live a little longer but their dominion taken away. The fourth beast though, that governing union will not be allowed to continue.

On the issue of flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God is fundamental to a person must be born again of the Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

Just as side note, Dave, the term 3 1/2 years is not found in bible prophecy. The 1260 days would be exactly half of the 7 years would be the closest thing. But the other two terms - 42 months and the time, times, half times are used because those don't equate to exactly 1260 days. I know mathematically they do. But not in way they are used in bible prophecy.

Okay, to the large number in Revelation 7. It reflects the scale of death that will take place in the great tribulation. Jesus said if those days were not shortened (limited) no flesh would survive.

When Jesus returns, the souls of those saints in Revelation 7 will get their eternal resurrected bodies at the start of the 1000 years reign in Revelation 20:4. Revelation 7 is not the resurrected/raptured saints, but them who die during the great tribulation.

It is the resurrected/raptured Christians - takened earlier, before the great tribulation begins (when the abomination of desolation is placed in the temple) who will be returning with Jesus in their glorified eternal bodies.

Which the question then becomes - what kind of bodies are do them in Revelation 7 have then? I don't know. The souls will apparently have some sort of body to be perceptible for John to have seen them. Not enough information to elaborate on though.

Apart from Christians before, after, and during the great tribulation - when the Kingdom of God is brought to earth, there apparently will be a number (not enough information to know how many) who are not Christians, who will survive, and will continue into the millennium. They will be part of the re-population, along with Christians who live through it.

There will still be the same nations - continue into the millennium, from what it says in Zechariah 14, regarding attending the feast of tabernacles, and in Daniel 7 about the three beasts allowed to live a little longer but their dominion taken away. The fourth beast though, that governing union will not be allowed to continue.

On the issue of flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God is fundamental to a person must be born again of the Spirit.

We still have an all hat no cattle situation. Not matter how you try to conjure up a pre-trib rapture, scripture does not endorse it.

 

[seventysevens]

There are no Direct Scripture References supporting the pre-trib rapture. You are on the same footing as any other cult that reads into scripture things that are not there.

THAT IS why it is called a Mystery , a mystery is something that is NOT OUT IN THE OPEN - it requires a deeper level of study , learning what the bible has taught , you being blinded is your problem - you cannot prove anything you say , you just make accusations because of your blindness - you calling Gods word a cult is blasphemous which will be held against you
you are blinded so you cannot see it , Paul did speak of it - THAT IS the Point , but to you if it is not said in a black/white elementary manner you cannot see it - this is a deeper topic that is not leaping off the page , it is a Mystery revealed - It really does not matter if you believe it or not for that will not change the fact that it is there

 

[Dave L]

THAT IS why it is called a Mystery , a mystery is something that is NOT OUT IN THE OPEN - it requires a deeper level of study , learning what the bible has taught , you being blinded is your problem - you cannot prove anything you say , you just make accusations because of your blindness - you calling Gods word a cult is blasphemous which will be held against you
you are blinded so you cannot see it , Paul did speak of it - THAT IS the Point , but to you if it is not said in a black/white elementary manner you cannot see it - this is a deeper topic that is not leaping off the page , it is a Mystery revealed - It really does not matter if you believe it or not for that will not change the fact that it is there

OKaaaay. Now we have Mysteries endorsing the pre-trib rapture since scripture does not.

 

[seventysevens]

OKaaaay. Now we have Mysteries endorsing the pre-trib rapture since scripture does not.

Too bad for you that your lack of understanding cause you your blindness , How about you give in detail exactly how you prove your diminished view to be true , there are Christians in heaven right now , I can think of about 20 questions that address this matter and you don't understand any of them - all you have done is mock and never even attempted to prove your view - because you know you can't - typical of people that mock Gods Word

 

[ubicaritas]

But unbelievers do not belong to the church, which is the Body of Christ. Institutional churches are packed to the gills with them.

That seems very presumptuous for you to say, since that is really only something God can know.

 

[Douggg]

We still have an all hat no cattle situation. Not matter how you try to conjure up a pre-trib rapture, scripture does not endorse it.

Dave, take a look at my information to the left - it says anytime rapture. My view is that the rapture can take place anytime between now and when it actually does. It takes into account that the rapture may not happen pre-trib (pre-70th week), and Christians may still be here when the 70th week begins.

Nonetheless, as it stands right now and the 70th week has not begun, there is nothing bible prophecy wise to prevent the resurrection/rapture to happen the next second. The resurrection/rapture is the blessed hope, so I am going with what Jesus instructed in Luke 21:34-36.

 

[seventysevens]

We still have an all hat no cattle situation. Not matter how you try to conjure up a pre-trib rapture, scripture does not endorse it.

Start simple . You don't even understand WHY there will be the Great tribulation , you do not even know what it is for or for who it is for

 

[Dave L]

Start simple . You don't even understand WHY there will be the Great tribulation , you do not even know what it is for or for who it is for

“After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)


“Then one of the elders asked me, “These dressed in long white robes—who are they and where have they come from?” So I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!” (Revelation 7:13–14)

And you think this all happened in 3 1/2 - 7 years?

 

[Dave L]

Dave, take a look at my information to the left - it says anytime rapture. My view is that the rapture can take place anytime between now and when it actually does. It takes into account that the rapture may not happen pre-trib (pre-70th week), and Christians may still be here when the 70th week begins.

Nonetheless, as it stands right now and the 70th week has not begun, there is nothing bible prophecy wise to prevent the resurrection/rapture to happen the next second. The resurrection/rapture is the blessed hope, so I am going with what Jesus instructed in Luke 21:34-36.

But only after the resurrection of the dead.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

 

[Dave L]

That seems very presumptuous for you to say, since that is really only something God can know.

Why all the dead Christians at the hands of the Lutheran, Reformed, and Catholics in the Reformation era if they were believers? Jesus says you will know them by their fruits.

 

[ubicaritas]

Why all the dead Christians at the hands of the Lutheran, Reformed, and Catholics in the Reformation era if they were believers? Jesus says you will know them by their fruits.

Because we are simultaneously saint and sinner. People are complicated, even Christians.

 

[BABerean2]

Nonetheless, as it stands right now and the 70th week has not begun, there is nothing bible prophecy wise to prevent the resurrection/rapture to happen the next second.

You are ignoring the time when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jewish people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, in Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, in order to claim a future 70th week of Daniel.

You must also add a "gap" not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel chapter 9.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

 

[seventysevens]

“After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.” (Revelation 7:9)


“Then one of the elders asked me, “These dressed in long white robes—who are they and where have they come from?” So I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!” (Revelation 7:13–14)

And you think this all happened in 3 1/2 - 7 years?

You are not making sense , consider a few nuclear bombs are dropped in one day , nearly the entire worlds population can be destroyed in one day , so yea it can happen in 3 1/2 - 7 years

 

[Douggg]

But only after the resurrection of the dead.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

Dave, the translation of the living is after the resurrection of the dead, yes - but the amount of time between the two is negligible - so as to be in effect one event, that is commonly called the rapture. Technically it is a resurrection of the dead and translation of the living.

The translation of the living will be more evident because they will be gone, absent from this earth, disappearing (Luke 24:31 example) - to them "left behind".

 

[Dave L]

You are not making sense , consider a few nuclear bombs are dropped in one day , nearly the entire worlds population can be destroyed in one day , so yea it can happen on 3 1/2 - 7 years

But, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So these are no subjects for your millennium.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, the translation of the living is after the resurrection of the dead, yes - but the amount of time between the two is negligible - so as to be in effect one event, that is commonly called the rapture. Technically it is a resurrection of the dead and translation of the living.

The translation of the living will be more evident because they will be gone, absent from this earth, disappearing (Luke 24:31 example) - to them "left behind".

It is not negotiable. It happens as part of the resurrection.

 

[Douggg]

You are ignoring the time when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jewish people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, in Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, in order to claim a future 70th week of Daniel.

You must also add a "gap" not mentioned by the angel Gabriel, in Daniel chapter 9.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

BaB2, I am torn between calling you a Baldwin-ite or a Varner- ite.