Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[BABerean2]

At the 6 TH Seal: The mighty captains and kings hide in fears in the mountains [Revelation 6:15-17]because they believe wrongly that the End of The World is arrived.

In Revelation 19 The mighty captains and the kings and their armies are all assembled in the Valley of Megiddo to make war against Jesus ..and they do not fear.

Can you see the difference ?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


No.

Not based on the Olivet Discourse...
.

 

[Erik Nelson]

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)


“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

agree
agree
agree
...many apply 1 Thess 4:16-17 to the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:1-6...

Eschatology is so repetitive that it's hard not to confuse & conflate "1st resurrections" with "2nd Final Resurrections" >1000 years afterwards.

Is it possible to prove 1 Thess 4:16 applies to the 2nd Final Resurrection (and not the 1st) ?

Tribulation by the Beast (vaguely similar to say the persecution of Diocletian vs. Christianity) precedes the 1st Resurrection of the Millennium (vaguely similar to the Christian era of Byzantium and medieval Rome)… and Gog & Magog precede the 2nd Final Resurrection of Final Judgement and God's Eternal Realm.

So the phrase "we who are left" could apply to either

 

[Erik Nelson]

- Except, of course, for the one little detail that neither the epistles of Paul nor any of the four gospels says that.

I think he's saying that those ideas are implied, logically, from your own claims

(no one is saying those words are in Scripture)

 

[Riberra]

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


No.

Not based on the Olivet Discourse...

Do you agree that the Coming of Jesus will happen at the Battle of Armageddon ?

 

[DavidPT]

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)


“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

Prove per any of those passages you submitted here, that the context is also involving the raising of the lost dead. All the passages you brought up, they are all referring to the first resurrection. Premils don't disagree, except for maybe some Pretribbers, that the first resurrection happens on the last day. Per Premil the last day could involve an entire thousand years though, depending on which Premil you might ask.

 

[keras]

Do you agree that the Coming of Jesus will happen at the Battle of Armageddon ?

People generally do agree with this, it is after all, exactly what Revelation 19:11-21 says.
Where BaB and many others go wrong though, is in thinking that the Lord's Day of wrath is at the Return as well.
This belief necessitates a shift of Revelation 6:12-17, to Rev 19; jumping over all the other prophesies described to happen before the Return. This idea is quite wrong as Revelation 22:18-19 warns us not to do that and all the prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, simply do not fit at the Return.
It's plain that there soon must happen something dramatic to sort out the situation in the Middle East and to enable the formation of a One World Government. The Lord will do it this time by fire, as 70+ prophesies graphically tell us.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Do you agree that the Coming of Jesus will happen at the Battle of Armageddon ?

Armageddon destroys "Babylon" (= "Sodom" = "Egypt" = "where Christ was Crucified" = Jerusalem)

yes? Armageddon ends "Babylon"... not the "Beast" (Rev 19), and not the whole entire planet earth (Rev 20)

Armageddon = local (1 city); defeat of the Beast = regional (1 empire); Final Judgement = global (1 planet)

 

[Biblewriter]

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)


“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

You can interpret these statements as you wish, but you cannot change the many scriptures that belie your interpretations of these scriptures.

 

[Erik Nelson]

People generally do agree with this, it is after all, exactly what Revelation 19:11-21 says.
Where BaB and many others go wrong though, is in thinking that the Lord's Day of wrath is at the Return as well.
This belief necessitates a shift of Revelation 6:12-17, to Rev 19; jumping over all the other prophesies described to happen before the Return. This idea is quite wrong as Revelation 22:18-19 warns us not to do that and all the prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, simply do not fit at the Return.
It's plain that there soon must happen something dramatic to sort out the situation in the Middle East and to enable the formation of a One World Government. The Lord will do it this time by fire, as 70+ prophesies graphically tell us.

"Armageddon" in Rev 16 is tightly sandwiched between references to the "Euphrates" and "Babylon", and the "fall of Babylon".

Armageddon = fall of Babylon

but Babylon != Beast... Babylon is the whorish "rider" of the Beast, not the Beast... there are two separate entities, not one "centaur" "rider-and-beast-as-one"

Babylon falls (1 city)
Beast falls (1 empire)
earth Ends (1 planet)

Eschatology escalates

 

[BABerean2]

Do you agree that the Coming of Jesus will happen at the Battle of Armageddon ?

Yes.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Yes.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

.

Rev 16 = Armageddon = vs. "Babylon" on the "Euphrates"

but Babylon is not the Beast

and it's the Beast who's defeated in Rev 19

 

[Riberra]

Yes.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Thus you agree that the 6Th Seal is not about the Coming of Jesus. There is no Battle of Armageddon at the 6Th Seal [Revelation 6:12-17]....Right ?

The destruction that will be caused by the Great Worldwide Earthquake of the 6Th Seal Revelation 6:12 will set the scene for the beginning of the Great Tribulation ...The urgency to seal the 144,000 Revelation 7 before the Trumpets plagues Revelation 8 Revelation 9]followed by the events concerning the 42 months reign of the Beast Revelation 13 .and finally the 7 Vials Of the Wrath of God Revelation 16 upon those who will have taken the mark and worshiped the Beast and his image.

...Jesus will come for the Battle of Armageddon mentioned in Revelation 19.

 

[BABerean2]

Thus you agree that the 6Th Seal is not about the Coming of Jesus. There is no Battle of Armageddon at the 6Th Seal [Revelation 6:12-17]....Right ?

Why would we make that assumption, just because the word "Armageddon" is not found in the passage?

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Why are they hiding from the Lamb, if the Lamb is not present?)

When is the Day of the Lord's wrath upon His enemies?


Remember that John is watching a vision in the passage above.
Do we find many of the same characters in chapter 19?

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Do you think that finding many of these same characters in both passages is just a coincidence?

.

 

[keras]

Do you think that finding many of these same characters in both passages is just a coincidence?

No. Those people are around all the time. Revelation 6:16 actually refers to every person on earth, But obviously from Revelation 19:19, Armageddon just refers to kings and their armies.
Those killed on the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal are not eaten by wild animals and birds. Psalm 37:20, Malachi 4:1, Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:3, +

 

[Dave L]

You can interpret these statements as you wish, but you cannot change the many scriptures that belie your interpretations of these scriptures.

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)


“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

These need no interpretation.

 

[Dave L]

Prove per any of those passages you submitted here, that the context is also involving the raising of the lost dead. All the passages you brought up, they are all referring to the first resurrection. Premils don't disagree, except for maybe some Pretribbers, that the first resurrection happens on the last day. Per Premil the last day could involve an entire thousand years though, depending on which Premil you might ask.

““Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.” (John 5:28–29)

Notice the TWO resurrections happen on the last day. Not 1000 - 1007 years apart. And as I've proven, this all happens on the last day.

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

 

[Dave L]

agree
agree
agree
...many apply 1 Thess 4:16-17 to the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:1-6...

Eschatology is so repetitive that it's hard not to confuse & conflate "1st resurrections" with "2nd Final Resurrections" >1000 years afterwards.

Is it possible to prove 1 Thess 4:16 applies to the 2nd Final Resurrection (and not the 1st) ?

Tribulation by the Beast (vaguely similar to say the persecution of Diocletian vs. Christianity) precedes the 1st Resurrection of the Millennium (vaguely similar to the Christian era of Byzantium and medieval Rome)… and Gog & Magog precede the 2nd Final Resurrection of Final Judgement and God's Eternal Realm.

So the phrase "we who are left" could apply to either

““Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.” (John 5:28–29)

Notice the TWO resurrections happen on the last day.

 

[BABerean2]

No. Those people are around all the time. Revelation 6:16 actually refers to every person on earth, But obviously from Revelation 19:19, Armageddon just refers to kings and their armies.
Those killed on the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal are not eaten by wild animals and birds. Psalm 37:20, Malachi 4:1, Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:3, +

That type of logic would make us think the women came to Christ's tomb several different times, because each Gospel account is not exactly the same.

The same is true of the Olivet Discourse. One Gospel simply says there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars, while the other Gospels give the specific signs of the sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, and the stars falling to the earth.
Are they speaking of the same event, if the language is not exactly the same?

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Revelation 16:15-16 says nothing about those being eaten by wild animals.
Does that mean it is not referring to Armageddon?


You claim a solar Coronal Mass Ejection is going to cause tremendous change on the planet.
Does the sun darken during a CME event or does it get brighter?


Could the two verses below be related in any way, if viewed by an unbiased witness?

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

[Biblewriter]

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.” (John 6:39)


“For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”” (John 6:40)Reply

“Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:23–24)

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

These need no interpretation.

Altough you have flatly refused to accept it, I have already posted numerous scriptures which plainly and obviously used the word "day," and likewise the word "hour," to represent a period of time of undetermined length. This is beyond debate. It is a simple fact. Therefore, your citation of these scriptures does not prove your theory, no matter what you say.

And very many other scriptures explicitly state things that conclusively disprove your theory.

 

[BABerean2]

Altough you have flatly refused to accept it, I have already posted numerous scriptures which plainly and obviously used the word "day," and likewise the word "hour," to represent a period of time of undetermined length. This is beyond debate. It is a simple fact. Therefore, your citation of these scriptures does not prove your theory, no matter what you say.

And very many other scriptures explicitly state things that conclusively disprove your theory.

When are you going to deal with the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 3131-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

Have you "flatly refused to accept" the scriptures above, because they "conclusively disprove your" Two Peoples of God doctrine?

.