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miknik5

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Zechariah had several visions in one night. They all intertwine with one another and are not in chronological order.

I would read up on this to better understand why the book jumps from one vision to another. It can be very confusing if the visions are not categorized to create the theme.

I studied it many years ago in school. I have the theme in mind, but its been a while. It takes study to get it. The word of God requires rolling up the sleeves and getting your hands dirty, so to speak. There was a time when I loved it, I'm getting lazy now and missing the drive.
The theme is that there is one who will build the House for God and at the end just as in the time of Ezra (ezra4) when the house is complete and they take out the Capstone the sighting of this temple will receive the same mixed emotional response as it did in Ezra 4.

Some in awesome adoration and some as in mourning for an only Son
 
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miknik5

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Your quote from Daniel 12 is misapplied

It is directed to Daniel's people of Israel only who will be in the time of Jacob's trouble during the coming tribulation [Jeremiah 30; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

A remnant part of the nation will turn, believe, and experience the conditions of the coming tribulation .... and the Lord will bring 1/3 of the nation through the fire [Zechariah 13:8-9] .... the other 2/3 will remain in unbelief and killed during the period

It sounds to me by your postings that you are mixing the Lord's nation of Israel with the "church" of today

His view is very different and His intent is still to bring the 1/3 under is covenant at the time [Ezekiel 20:34-44] .... this He will do .... not doubt

And this future event for Israel has nothing to do with your religious organization from which you have been taught in error .... your "church" is not national ethnic Israel
It sounds like you want to continue
 
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miknik5

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It sounds like you want to continue
I think the problem between you and I is that you are looking to serve those who are already in The Refuge but we were called to point all to That Refuge since there are many who have not entered in who will face This time of trouble and that they are to wait while He hides His face temporarily from Jacobs troubles and while He is detained 21 days and no one is helping Him but Michael the prince of Daniels people they should understand that the battle is the Lords

Unlike " the violent men if the covenant" who by what they will do will make manifest that they blaspheme the God who they claim to say they know

Why did you think the craftsmen were going to go out and put a mark on the foreheads if all those who will be appalled by all the atrocities which will come in the last days

And why did you think that some of the wise will stumble so as to be made pure for the time if the end so that they could teach rightly the true and holy and perfect and unbiased righteousness of the Lord?
 
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Charlie24

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Here's the thing that I think many overlook. This is not a closed discussion It is open. On an open forum with many ears listening in. All it is doing is adding confusion and representing those who say they know God and all the hidden things of God as confused and in disagreement with one another. We are discussing something that will happen but more importantly there are many who have not first entered in by Way of THE DOOR now while it is still today

If you really want to start some serious confusion, post a thread on how one enters by the way of the door. You think this is confusing for those looking on, wait and see what happens when you post that thread.

I say this to our shame, but I'm no rookie to forums. You will see more ways of salvation than you ever dreamed.
 
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miknik5

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If you really want to start some serious confusion, post a thread on how one enters by the way of the door. You think this is confusing for those looking on, wait and see what happens when you post that thread.

I say this to our shame, but I'm no rookie to forums. You will see more ways of salvation than you ever dreamed.
are you telling me I have to repeat John 10
And that those who claim to know the Truth don't understand John 10?

Maybe Ezekiel 34 is better for you?
 
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Endtime Survivors

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Well, I've always thought it to be a shame that there are divisions between Christians such as this. There are many more divisions that keep us apart.

All I can say is that we have to agree to disagree. I hold no hard feelings for my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently than myself. Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all who trust in Him, it's not my place to cast stones.

I'm fine to agree to disagree, though obviously from my point of view I raised some fairly legitimate counter arguments to the point you were making. I'd rather stay away from "who's right and who's wrong" and look more at what at least seems to make the most sense based on the bigger picture.

It's not really the divisions that cause problems. Jesus had some pretty serious divisions between himself and the pharisees and really himself and the whole world. What we need, or at least what I believe would be the best approach isn't to shy away from disagreements but rather to to approach them in a way that doesn't necessarily present the opposing argument as spiritually lost if it doesn't agree with our own position.
 
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Straightshot

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Take the Lord at His word .... when a man genuinely connects with His spirit He will lead the man into all truth .... and this is what He does

How is it then that there are so many conflicting views?

There can be only one answer .... not everyone is telling the truth .... or they are following false teachers

Get your connection and study your self approved .... then the confusion will go away

This takes time and dedication .... and this requirement is reasonable
 
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Endtime Survivors

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I responded to the poster who apparently has prepared for entering the tribulation

And I want to know about the preparation

What you say above is what all believers do if genuine

That hasn't been my experience for the most part. I have experienced some pre-tribbers who see a need to be prepared "just in case" and for those people I have much respect despite our disagreement about pre vs post trib rapture.

The majority of my experience with pre-tribbers is one of escapism where any hint of doubt that they could be mistaken or preparation "just in case" equates to lack of faith. In particular the "Mark of the Beast" is one area where such an attitude will almost certainly cause people to end up taking the Mark. The logic works like this; "God has promised that I won't be around for all the problems. Therefore taking this "mark" on my hand which will allow me to continue buying and selling cannot possibly be prophesied mark of the Beast".

Of course, if they are right about the pre-trib then there's no problem, but if they are mistaken in their interpretation; if they believed so badly that they would escape any need to suffer for their faith that they overlooked certain uncomfortable "signs of the times" then they would likely end up making some very bad mistakes with very likely eternal consequences.

In matthew 24 Jesus describes a situation which sounds very much like panic. He talks about people who will claim he returned secretly; they'll say, "he's in the secret chambers" or "he's out in the desert" and finishes off by telling us not to go after them. It sounds like something people will do when their expectations are not met; when all the trouble starts they'll be under intense psychological pressure to come up with some kind of explanation as to why Jesus didn't come back for them like he promised. It will be easy to convince themselves that Jesus really did return, but just that they need to go and faithfully search for him. It sounds ridiculous, and yet it's the situation Jesus described. Obviously, if there are millions of empty sets of clothing suddenly lying around all over the place with the owners suddenly missing, then there would be no point to anyone claiming that Jesus is off in the desert or the secret chambers. The proof would be literally lying all over the place that he came for his elect and left again unless these people claiming he's in the desert expect to find millions of naked believers out there. It just makes no sense, unless Jesus is describing a situation where people who were grossly unprepared suddenly find themselves grasping at any straw of comfort that they were not wrong, even if it means believing that they just need to go find their secretly-returned Jesus out in the wilderness and everything will be okay.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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Take the Lord at His word .... when a man genuinely connects with His spirit He will lead the man into all truth .... and this is what He does

How is it then that there are so many conflicting views?

There can be only one answer .... not everyone is telling the truth .... or they are following false teachers

Get your connection and study your self approved .... then the confusion will go away

This takes time and dedication .... and this requirement is reasonable

I think the discussion would flow better if we each tried to deal with the merits of the argument itself rather than focusing on the perceived spiritual inferiority of the person making the argument.
 
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Riberra

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Spiritual perception is necessary and the only way that a man can fully understand

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
Lets test your Spiritual perception:
What in essence is the central theme that the Spirit saith unto the 7 Churches that were in existence 2,000 years ago ?

Is it true that only the Church of Philadelphia was able to avoid the terrible roman persecution (Revelation 3:10)?
 
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Charlie24

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I don't push my stand on the rapture, I state my view and let it go. It was settled for me a long time ago. The Lord gave me peace through His word and I don't give it a second thought. There are many who will say "what if," but there is no what if for me. I'm not going through the time of Jacob's trouble and it has nothing to do with my person. It's a promise from God Himself to all who trust in Him. If you don't agree that's fine with me, but it doesn't change anything. I couldn't imagine living life not having this issue settled in my heart!
 
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Riberra

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I don't push my stand on the rapture, I state my view and let it go. It was settled for me a long time ago. The Lord gave me peace through His word and I don't give it a second thought. There are many who will say "what if," but there is no what if for me. I'm not going through the time of Jacob's trouble and it has nothing to do with my person. It's a promise from God Himself to all who trust in Him. If you don't agree that's fine with me, but it doesn't change anything. I couldn't imagine living life not having this issue settled in my heart!
Are you saying that the pre-tribulation rapture is your blessed hope ?
That you have placed all your faith into the pre-tribulation rapture basket ?
 
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Charlie24

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Are you saying that the pre-tribulation rapture is your blessed hope ?
That you have placed all your faith into the pre-tribulation rapture basket ?

My blessed hope is the same as Pauls.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

I'm in lock, stock, and barrel. It's been settled a long time ago.
 
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I don't push my stand on the rapture, I state my view and let it go. It was settled for me a long time ago. The Lord gave me peace through His word and I don't give it a second thought. There are many who will say "what if," but there is no what if for me. I'm not going through the time of Jacob's trouble and it has nothing to do with my person. It's a promise from God Himself to all who trust in Him. If you don't agree that's fine with me, but it doesn't change anything. I couldn't imagine living life not having this issue settled in my heart!

I'm not suggesting you push your stand. It's a discussion so it's expected that you will offer your point of view, perspective, reasons, counter arguments etc. I'm not asking you to fight about this nor am I suggesting that you are obligated to change your point of view based on anything said here. I think what makes these disagreements so difficult to watch is that people often fall back on implications that the opposing side is somehow spiritually inferior just because they disagree. The implication is that the Lord is on my side and since we can't both be right the Lord is not on your side. I don't think God's point of view is that black/white and I don't think that kind of thing is helpful when attempting to arrive at the truth. In other words, I think we all have areas where we can be right with God while at the same time have areas where we can have a wrong understanding, and even within those two categories there can be a long spectrum of gray between the right and wrong of each.

I think at some point we should be able to agree to disagree, but we seemed to have reached that point rather early in the piece between you and me and I don't know why that is, since I feel I have tried to treat your arguments with respect despite disagreeing with them.

In this context, I hope you won't mind if respond to the points you've made in the quote above and I hope you will feel encouraged to respond to my counter arguments. I think it's fine that you felt peace about having made a decision as to what you believe about the pre vs post trib rapture issue.

However, comments like, "I don't think twice about it" or "there is no 'what if'" suggest that you're not really open to hearing, or even considering alternative points of view. For example, I am willing to think twice about it. Every time I discuss this issue with others I believe I do try to hear what the other person is saying in the event that I may have missed something along the way. Look back at my posts on this thread and you will see that I've addressed most of what the opposition has had to say and I give clearly defined reasons for that position does not make sense; not just that I disagree, but why it doesn't make sense to me.

I think we all need to have second thoughts about every aspect of our walk with God, especially since we don't have perfect understanding of all truth. The "what if" is there to remind us of that. What if I have got it wrong? If I'm in a place where I have decided there can be no second thought whatsoever, then how can I possibly hope to overcome whatever misunderstanding I'm having? I'm applying this to more than just the current disagreement about the rapture and I'm suggesting this should apply to all Christians, including me. I'm quite sure I have a wrong understanding on several issues, though I'm not aware of the specifics. To me, that is what all learning is about. My job is to think twice, thrice and however many times it takes to search out those wrong understandings.

This should be especially true for those areas where we believe we are the most right, because those are the areas we are least likely to revisit with renewed examination as to whether or not we really do have it all worked out. It is not a sign of faith to be stubbornly opposed to thinking twice about a position for which we have strong conviction. It is the opposite of faith to stop thinking, to stop questioning, and to stop what if'ing.

This is why I suggested, in my earlier post to straightshot, how so many Christians could end up taking the Mark of the Beast. IF they are wrong about their pre-trib position, then they will end up going through the trib and they will end up facing the Mark. But, if they've settled it in their heart that there is no way they could possibly be wrong, then they will not see the Mark as the Mark. They will think, "since there's no way I can be wrong, this thing about to be put on my hand so that I may continue to buy/sell cannot possibly be the Mark; God promised that I would not need to face it therefore there should be no problem with me accepting this thing on my hand". It will not be that God somehow broke his promise that these Christians will end up being condemned for taking the Mark, but rather that they became stubborn and hard hearted, unwilling to re-examine their position and as a result made bad decisions.

This is why it is so very dangerous to confuse a stubbornness with conviction and faith. It's like the "name it and claim it" miracles, where people claim to have been healed when really they have not. They see the claim as evidence of faith that God will someday heal them, but when talking to others they must PRETEND that they've been healed as a sign of their faith. If they honestly say, "no I haven't been healed yet but I believe God will someday" then it's the equivalent of letting go of the claim and therefore shows a lack of faith. They've made stubbornness and dishonesty into a sign of real faith.

Taking the position that, "I have made a decision about what I know to be the truth and have vowed to never think about it again" is the worst place a seeker of truth can be.

Will you please reconsider you position on refusing to think about the alternatives and the what if's?
 
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Riberra

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My blessed hope is the same as Pauls.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

I'm in lock, stock, and barrel. It's been settled a long time ago.
You surely know that the whole Titus 2 Chapter have nothing to do with a rapture of the Church to Heaven before the tribulation .

Do you know when the the GLORIOUS APPEARING of our Lord Jesus Christ will happen ? Hint :Matthew 24:29-31
 
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Do you know when the the GLORIOUS APPEARING of our Lord Jesus Christ will happen ? Hint :Matthew 24:29-31

Hi Riberra. The opposing argument which charlie and straighshot are putting forward is that the Matthew 24 verse refers to Jesus coming back only for the Jews (who went through the tribulation). The 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4/5 verses, they suggest, are referring to the Christians being raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Their suggestion, apparently, is that there are two separate raptures, one for the Christians before the Trib and one for the (unbelieving?) Jews after the Trib. I made the point, earlier, about how all three instances make reference to a "trumpet" and how, in particular, Paul's 1 Corinthians 15 reference specifically mentions the "last" trumpet.

Charlie's response to that was that the last trumpet Paul was referring to was a trumpet heralding the end of the church age and not a reference to the last of the 7 trumpets of the tribulation. It's when I asked Charlie to provide some clarification/evidence of this claim that he decided he didn't want to argue about these issues, though I'm still keen to hear the explanation.
 
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