Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[miknik5]

What refuge?

Christ sir. I am sure you knew that. And I am sure that you knew that all men must come by way of The Door unto the kingdom of God. And that no man can enter any other way But the DOOR

 

[Ronald]

Thank you that makes beautiful sense

Well thanks, I'm not sure if the Great Tribulation is a thing of beauty though. I guess it's bitter/sweet. Jesus is coming and that's wonderful, He's coming for us but then for judgment on everyone else. Afterwards, peace for 1000 years, without sin and evil - that's beautiful.

 

[Straightshot]

"Christ sir. I am sure you knew that. And I am sure that you knew that all men must come by way of The Door unto the kingdom of God. And that no man can enter any other way But the DOOR"


Which side of the door are you on?

In other words, do you think will you be on the "rapture" side with oil.... or the tribulation side with no oil? [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]

 

[Ronald]

The last judgment trumpet of the set of 7 closes the tribulation period

No, the 7th trumpet is when the rapture occurs. We are taken "out of" the tribulation but it's not over, the 7 bowls of God's wrath are released and so there is more time. This argues against both pre-trib and post-trib. As you can gather, I'm neither. I'm a Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath whichever you want to label it.

However, it is not the last, there will be one just following the days of the tribulation [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... this one is for the gathering of the believing mortal survivors of Israel and these will populate [reproduce in] the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth

Is. 11 says nothing about a trumpet.
Is. 27:12 mentions the trumpet we are talking about, the last one ... and_ so?

Then the Lord will gather the mortal survivors of the Gentile nations and those found believing [the sheep] will enter the same, those found in unbelief [the goats] will not [Matthew 25:31-46]

This speaks of judgment, separating us from the unbelievers .... and_so?

There is another last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia just before the tribulation begins

[1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 18:4]

Not before but in the middle. 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes. 4:16 is the last and the last is the 7th. Pre-tribbers must distort the identity of this trumpet, otherwise their view falls apart. If they said it was #7, then it would be clear that we must endure the first six trumpets. But no, they think we are not going to suffer anything. Christians are suffering all over the world in Muslim countries right now. We are fortunate _ so far_ to be somewhat safe ... but not for long. Post-tribbers distort this too, because they would have to concede that if we are taken out at the 7th trumpet, the bowls are still left, therefore it's not over yet.

The first trumpet and message to His "church" is found here [Revelation 1:10]

The Lord's voice sounds like a trumpet, like the voice of an archangel

A loud voice like a trumpet just means that it is loud and piercing. Whenever "like" is used, it's a figure of speech, a simile.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No, the 7th trumpet is when the rapture occurs. We are taken "out of" the tribulation but it's not over, the 7 bowls of God's wrath are released and so there is more time. This argues against both pre-trib and post-trib. As you can gather, I'm neither. I'm a Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath whichever you want to label it.

No matter which way it is labelled,
we can all expect a lot of suffering,
beyond what the world has ever seen before,
and millions upon millions
(if there's that many) of believers suffering and being slaughtered,
(millions already have in the last few decades)
as well as billions of those on earth dying in a short time.

 

[miknik5]

Well thanks, I'm not sure if the Great Tribulation is a thing of beauty though. I guess it's bitter/sweet. Jesus is coming and that's wonderful, He's coming for us but then for judgment on everyone else. Afterwards, peace for 1000 years, without sin and evil - that's beautiful.

I know it isn't a thing of beauty but there has been too many voices here and with it much confusion

 

[Straightshot]

No, the 7th trumpet is when the rapture occurs

Scriptures please

"Is. 27:12 mentions the trumpet we are talking about, the last one ... and_ so?"

This trumpet is a gathering trumpet specifically for Israel .... after the days of the tribulation .... it is not the 7th judgment trumpet

"This speaks of judgment, separating us from the unbelievers .... and_so?"

No .... the "church" will have already been made immortal .... the gathering and separating of the mortal survivors of the tribulation will come after the days of the tribulation .... these will be mortals .... no resurrections to immortality will occur .... those found believing will enter and populate [reproduce] in the Lord's millennial kingdom after the tribulation .... immortals do not reproduce

"A loud voice like a trumpet just means that it is loud and piercing. Whenever "like" is used, it's a figure of speech, a simile."

You are not reading the verses I gave carefully enough

And I have to tell you that Marvin Rosenthal's mid tribulation teaching is false for many reasons

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Other than that .... keep on studying and study thyself approved .... this is possible

 

[tatteredsoul]

.

 

[Straightshot]

"Even Margaret McDonald said her dream did NOT feel God-sent, and felt demonic. But, the church ran with it anyway."


It was not for sure .... and even then her tutored vision has the "church" going through the tribulation .... have you ever read it? .... it is on the Internet

And yet the those who use it claim just the opposite and that Darby used it to teach a pre-tribulation calling .... which they call a "lie" of the devil

.... something is wrong with this picture

Think about it

 

[miknik5]

"Christ sir. I am sure you knew that. And I am sure that you knew that all men must come by way of The Door unto the kingdom of God. And that no man can enter any other way But the DOOR"


Which side of the door are you on?

In other words, do you think will you be on the "rapture" side with oil.... or the tribulation side with no oil? [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]

I'm already in

 

[Straightshot]

The door is still open ..... make certain that you are ready to go through [Matthew 25:1-13]

.... the Lord is going to shut it .... and those who find themselves on the wrong side will enter the tribulation

He will still save them, but they will have to repent and turn to Him [Revelation 3:15-20]

 

[Riberra]

"Even Margaret McDonald said her dream did NOT feel God-sent, and felt demonic. But, the church ran with it anyway."


It was not for sure .... and even then her tutored vision has the "church" going through the tribulation .... have you ever read it? .... it is on the Internet

And yet the those who use it claim just the opposite and that Darby used it to teach a pre-tribulation calling .... which they call a "lie" of the devil

.... something is wrong with this picture

Think about it

Margaret McDonald wrote that in her vision she saw that -the wise virgins- will not be there during the tribulation while the rest of the Church will be on the Earth.

The wise virgins is representing a 'special group of people 'that you call 'His True Ecclesia.'
If that is not the pre-tribulation rapture ,then what is it?

 

[Ronald]

I know it isn't a thing of beauty but there has been too many voices here and with it much confusion

Right, because there are a half dozen views about this time period along with Amillennial views as well.

 

[Straightshot]

"Margaret McDonald wrote that in her vision she saw that -the wise virgins- will not be there during the tribulation while the rest of the Church will be on the Earth"

No .... her vision has the "church" including herself going through the tribulation

And not only that, but the things that she claimed where only the doctrines of her church

She was not a prophet .... there are no prophets but the Bible prophets

Her position was much like Ellen G. White of the SDA .... and in house false prophet

 

[Ronald]

Scriptures please?

This trumpet is a gathering trumpet specifically for Israel .... after the days of the tribulation .... it is not the 7th judgment trumpet

No .... the "church" will have already been made immortal .... the gathering and separating of the mortal survivors of the tribulation will come after the days of the tribulation .... these will be mortals .... no resurrections to immortality will occur .... those found believing will enter and populate [reproduce] in the Lord's millennial kingdom after the tribulation .... immortals do not reproduce

And I have to tell you that Marvin Rosenthal's mid tribulation teaching is false for many reasons

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Other than that .... keep on studying and study thyself approved .... this is possible

You gave some of the rapture scriptures of the last trumpet.
Here's what happens: Rev.11:15 describes these events at the sound of Trumpet #7
*The mystery of God is revealed (Rev. 10:7 -btw, This book is not in chronological order, that's how everyone confuses the order of events. Events overlap and are repeated in different vantage points, like a 3-dimensional sphere that you turn in order to see all the parts. And actually, the trumpets and bowls fall within the seals and that will mess with you for a long time.)
* Christ appears
*The resurrection of the church
*The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's
*The dead are resurrected and judged as well
*We receive rewards
*The Temple of God is opened in heaven
*The Bowls of God's wrath in full are released.

Vantage point examples:
*The 144,000 male virgins from the 12 tribes. Rev. 7 and 14 correlate to each other, they are not different time periods.
*Rev. 6:12 is the same earthquake as described in Rev. 16:18 and possibly Rev. 11:13 as well.
The seals of the scroll have already been opened by Jesus when He arrived in heaven long ago -- how else would John know what was in them. They contain orders, like a play has a script. The actions are in the trumpets and bowls.
As for Marvin Rosenthal - never heard of him.

 

[Straightshot]

Sorry, but I can't agree with your eschatological make up for many reasons

And I am aware that the Book of Revelation is layered and not strictly linear

 

[Riberra]

"Margaret McDonald wrote that in her vision she saw that -the wise virgins- will not be there during the tribulation while the rest of the Church will be on the Earth"

No .... her vision has the "church" including herself going through the tribulation

What she is saying is that a group (those filled with EXTRA OIL/A HIGHER SPIRIT )will be taken and they will not have to go through the Trial of the Antichrist....while all the other(s) in the Church will have to go through it.

Here the ORIGINAL version of her saying that those FILLED with the Spirit/read EXTRA OIL meaning a HIGHER SPIRIT [SPIRITUALITY] THAT THE OTHER CHRISTIANS DOES NOT POSSESS--will be taken while the other(s) will be left (behind)to be tried by the Antichrist.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

***...'now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains,*** but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I feIt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left,

Note the -subtle pass: she is referring only to those with 'EXTRA OIL' that supposedly other Christians does not have.

/because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven/.
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That is exactly the basics of what you promote Straightshot.

***You follow the doctrine inspired by an EVIL SPIRIT.

Here the red flags -among many others- in Margaret McDonald writings:

'now shall the glorious mystery of God IN OUR NATURE be known -

now shall it be known what it is FOR MAN TO BE GLORIFIED.

I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - IT IS NOT THE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GOD THAT IT CONTAIN,

Source:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

 

[Straightshot]

McDonald's vision was a fraud in the first place ..... the woman was not a prophet .... there are no genuine prophets except the Bible prophets

So for a guy like David McPherson to concoct a story linking McDonald's vision to the preacher Darby for the origin of the Lord's pre-tribulation call that presents the same as a "lie of the devil" is abhorrent ..... McPherson and those like him are expressing their covert disdain for the Lord's Word .... these dudes are reprobate false teachers and not to be followed

So if you want to base your theology on such nonsense go ahead, and if you want to enter His wrath and judgment of the tribulation at Satan's delight you may just do that ... unless you die first before the day .... if you know what I mean

 

[miknik5]

By this writing of this woman. One must first understand what it means to be in The Spirit and how this has even come to be that God has shared His nature with those whom He has called

By the way it is through that it to the heart/knee buckling revelation of how much all were in need of a savior and the Truth of the Gosoel that one is baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christs sacrificial death and risen in Him a new creation covered and marked by His blood

Where does this woman say that she is pretrib?

Did someone read her notes and assign this to her?

 

[miknik5]

I don't see anything off in her understanding and I see it in line to Christ forewarning and reminding His Body before anything begins to occur to remember the height from which they had fallen, remember their first love, go back and do the things you did in the beginning because I am finding your works incomplete in the sight of God

We are told to remain in Him
What does it mean to Remain in Him

I believe this Margaret understood that part of it, I believe also 1John 2 reminds us not to "go out" not to "progress above the head" and we are told the servant is not above His Master.

I am not sure if she is referring to our natures as being glorious but that because of The Spirit and doing what pleases the Lord and trusting in Him there will be things that we will have to rely on by His Spirit only. And those born of His Spirit know Him and know His Spirit and are able to even in tribulation discern what is the works of the kingdom of light from the works of the kingdom of darkness and will not "go out" from His Spirit

Christ told us do not avenge, do not uproot. It will not be by power or might but by His Spirit
And to look up and see the sign of the Son of Man is to hear His voice. THAT Trumpet call that not all will be able to hear because not all know His Voice/Spirit because not all have heard The Voice/Spirit of The Son of God and therefore can't discern what can only be known and revealed by HIS SPIRIT

Our spirits within us wil hear His Voice which is why even the dead in Christ will rise and be gathered to Him on that day

but I do not see where she held herself as a pretrib other than she knew that to keep oil in our lamps was to cling to the zone who is The Treasure in these vessels of clay