Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[miknik5]

OK, now let's look for the truth of Zech. 13.

13:1
"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."

This speaks of the beginning of the Kingdom Age, sin and uncleaness shall be taken away from Jerusalem. The Lord is ready for His reign on earth, the things of the past are over, it's a fresh start.

13:2
"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."

No more idols, NO MORE FALSE PROPHETS, and no more demon spirits to lead the revolt against God.

13:3
"And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth."

You notice here there will be no more FALSE PROPHESY. They will be put to death if they do.

13:4
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:"

The prophets of old wore rough animal skins, as did John the Baptist. The false prophets also wore this type clothing to deceive the people in believing they were the prophet of God, but they were liars.
Of course this is a metaphor that must be updated to the future time of the Kingdom Age. At this time they will not be wearing rough clothing.

13:5
"But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth."

Because the Lord is now ruling the truth comes out. All these false prophets admit they were not called of God to preach and teach. They had been deceived by satan.

The setting of all this is at Jerusalem, the time is just after the tribulation and beginning the 1000 year reign of Christ, it is referring to the Jews. These false prophets are the leaders of Judaism. They have just met the Messiah and know they cannot lie and get away with it.

Now vs 6.
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

It is the leaders of Judaism that ask Christ this question. The self proclaimed prophets.

Jesus has just saved Israel from the anti-christ, He is standing there in Jerusalem with the Jews looking at Him. This is the moment of recognition, this is when they look upon the One whom they pierced. The first 5 verses of this chapter have not taken place yet, that takes place after they realize it's Jesus. All of Israel repents and makes Jesus their Messiah.

Why is there a "problem" at the end of this "kingdom age" as we proceed into Zechariah 14 and are told that the day of the Lord is coming

 

[Charlie24]

Why is there a "problem" at the end of this "kingdom age" as we proceed into Zechariah 14 and are told that the day of the Lord is coming

Zech. 14:1 says that the Lord is coming, vs 2-3 tell why He is coming.

The book of Zechariah is not in chronological order.

What problem are you referring to?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

If you remember the book of Job, how that God did not inflict the tribulation, but He allowed satan to do it. The tribulation we face as Christians does not come from God, it comes from satan. Wrath is a completely different story, it does come from God, but to the unbelieving. Those who are in Christ need not fear the wrath of God, He is on our side. Sometimes He allows the tribulation of satan to strengthen our faith, but only allows satan to go so far, as He did with Job. Remember when satan told God that Job had a hedge around him and he couldn't get in. That is the hedge that every born again saint of God has, but God will allow that hedge to be temporarily dropped for our benefit, to make us depend on Him instead of ourselves. Without that hedge that God provides, we have no defense against satan. That's how much He loves and cares for us.

Except, the theory seems to change when it comes to the great tribulation. In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his disciples, not unbelievers, and he's talking about people who over come, people who endure to the end, people who listen to God's call and flee when he tells them to, people who do not turn back etc...

That is the proper name you know, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the saints trouble.

See, this is where your theory seems to break down (i.e. it becomes inconsistent). "Trouble", "persecution", and "tribulation" are things all God's people experience (regardless of where it comes from). You recognize that at the start of your post, but then when it comes to the "tribulation such as the world has never seen nor ever will see again" mentioned in Matthew 24, the theory suddenly changes and tribulation is not good for the saints; rather, it is for the unbelievers. I just can't see that interpretation as consistent with what Jesus actually says about laying our lives down for our faith etc.

ICor. 15:52 and 1Thes. 4:16 are in harmony. The trumpet sounds, dead saints are raised, living saints are changed, and death is overcome by victory. That cannot be said of Rev. 11 and Matt. 24.

In Rev. 11 after the seventh trumpet sounds in vs 15, let's read what happens.
Rev. 11:18
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

I don't understand why you say the 7th trumpet of the Revelation and Matthew 24 are inconsistent with the trumpets which Paul refers to. After the 7th trumpet, the nations are angry and God's wrath is come. That is consistent with the idea that immediately after the tribulation of those days (i.e. the great tribulation, which ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet) God's elect (i.e. his followers) are gathered from the earth and then God's wrath is poured out on a spiritually desolate world below.

The dead in Christ are resurrected and judged as they're given new bodies and fly up to meet the lord in the air. What else could "at the sound of a trumpet the son of man will be seen in the air and the angels will gather his followers together from all over the world" mean? In the context of what is actually being described and the spiritual lessons, it doesn't make sense that there will be two "gathering ups", one for Christians and then another for unbelieving Jews later, especially when all three of these references talk about a trumpet and, in particular, the last trumpet, saints/elect being resurrected, the lord in the air, meeting the lord in the air etc.

I don't see any confusion regarding the trumpets, and I think that is because I am prepared to go through the great tribulation. If I'm wrong, and there really is a pre-trib rapture, then I think I'd be quite happy to admit to being wrong about that, and quite relieved, too; I don't think anyone is suggesting that the saints should enjoy suffering for the sake of suffering.

But if the pre-tribbers are mistaken, then what? They'll be completely unprepared for the coming trouble, because they always believed they'd never need to prepare for it.

 

[miknik5]

Zech. 14:1 says that the Lord is coming, vs 2-3 tell why He is coming.

The book of Zechariah is not in chronological order.

What problem are you referring to?

Is the prophecy of Zechariah accurate? Can we believe what is written by Gods Word?

 

[Charlie24]

Except, the theory seems to change when it comes to the great tribulation. In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his disciples, not unbelievers, and he's talking about people who over come, people who endure to the end, people who listen to God's call and flee when he tells them to, people who do not turn back etc...



See, this is where your theory seems to break down (i.e. it becomes inconsistent). "Trouble", "persecution", and "tribulation" are things all God's people experience (regardless of where it comes from). You recognize that at the start of your post, but then when it comes to the "tribulation such as the world has never seen nor ever will see again" mentioned in Matthew 24, the theory suddenly changes and tribulation is not good for the saints; rather, it is for the unbelievers. I just can't see that interpretation as consistent with what Jesus actually says about laying our lives down for our faith etc.



I don't understand why you say the 7th trumpet of the Revelation and Matthew 24 are inconsistent with the trumpets which Paul refers to. After the 7th trumpet, the nations are angry and God's wrath is come. That is consistent with the idea that immediately after the tribulation of those days (i.e. the great tribulation, which ends at the sounding of the 7th trumpet) God's elect (i.e. his followers) are gathered from the earth and then God's wrath is poured out on a spiritually desolate world below.

The dead in Christ are resurrected and judged as they're given new bodies and fly up to meet the lord in the air. What else could "at the sound of a trumpet the son of man will be seen in the air and the angels will gather his followers together from all over the world" mean? In the context of what is actually being described and the spiritual lessons, it doesn't make sense that there will be two "gathering ups", one for Christians and then another for unbelieving Jews later, especially when all three of these references talk about a trumpet and, in particular, the last trumpet, saints/elect being resurrected, the lord in the air, meeting the lord in the air etc.

I don't see any confusion regarding the trumpets, and I think that is because I am prepared to go through the great tribulation. If I'm wrong, and there really is a pre-trib rapture, then I think I'd be quite happy to admit to being wrong about that, and quite relieved, too; I don't think anyone is suggesting that the saints should enjoy suffering for the sake of suffering.

But if the pre-tribbers are mistaken, then what? They'll be completely unprepared for the coming trouble, because they always believed they'd never need to prepare for it.

Well, I've always thought it to be a shame that there are divisions between Christians such as this. There are many more divisions that keep us apart.

All I can say is that we have to agree to disagree. I hold no hard feelings for my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently than myself. Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all who trust in Him, it's not my place to cast stones.

 

[miknik5]

I have discovered that it is better to only give you one question at a time and not go forward until that one question is answered

I am not satisfied with your rendition of Zechariah 13

I want to step back to Zechariah 12 and read it in context to Zechariah 12 and Zechariah 13

 

[miknik5]

What do the disbelieving lack that the believers have received

The answer is in fact found in Zechariah 12 before we proceed in order to Zechariah 13 where all who prophecied without true knowledge will be marked by the wounds which they received in the house of their friends

 

[miknik5]

note that parents will even thrust their children through if the even say the Lord said

The reason is that His Spirit has been poured out upon all and all will know Him which is why when He poured
Out His Spirut upon them as per Zechariah 12 they looked upon the one whom they pierced knowing then and in that moment this is THE SON over the WHOLE HOUSE OF GOD...that House not restricted to only the 12 tribes of Isarel sir but with the pouring out if The Holy Spirit they too will have the Knowlwdge that they did not have when they were "enemies" for the sake of the Gentiles conversion

God being the One who sent HIS OWN LIGHT unto all the nations. Because of and for the sake of HIS GREAT NAME and to show HIS NAME as HOLY amongst all nations

 

[miknik5]

Well, I've always thought it to be a shame that there are divisions between Christians such as this. There are many more divisions that keep us apart.

All I can say is that we have to agree to disagree. I hold no hard feelings for my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently than myself. Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice for all who trust in Him, it's not my place to cast stones.

That is the best reply I have heard. And you are right. As long as our faith is in Him and we are not withholding the seeds of life to any we have come to understand the "BETTER PART" and everything outside the "BETTER PART" and clinging to HIM is all that is needed and needful

 

[Straightshot]

"But if the pre-tribbers are mistaken, then what? They'll be completely unprepared for the coming trouble, because they always believed they'd never need to prepare for it."


What have you done to prepare?

 

[miknik5]

And by the way what did "Reading Comprehension" mean? Was that directed at me? If so I apologize if my head was swimming and confusion set in. But this thread has done nothing but that

 

[miknik5]

"But if the pre-tribbers are mistaken, then what? They'll be completely unprepared for the coming trouble, because they always believed they'd never need to prepare for it."


What have you done to prepare?

You are supposed to be prepared as a virgin who looooooves her bridegroom would be prepared. Waiting and longing and loving HIS return

If you look at the other Virginia, their haste in trying to prepare themselves at the very last second clearly makes
Manifest that they had much more on their mind than the return of Their Beloved

Or should I say on their hearts?

 

[Straightshot]

I responded to the poster who apparently has prepared for entering the tribulation

And I want to know about the preparation

What you say above is what all believers do if genuine

Post-tribulation thinkers do not understand this [Revelation 3:10] .... and they feel that they must experience the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

This idea is contradictory and false .... so I want to know how the writer of the post has prepared for entering the tribulation

If answered, then I will take the discussion to the next question

 

[miknik5]

I responded to the poster who apparently has prepared for entering the tribulation

And I want to know about the preparation

What you say above is what all believers do if genuine

Post-tribulation thinkers do not understand this [Revelation 3:10] .... and they feel that they must experience the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

This idea is contradictory and false .... so I want to know how the writer of the post has prepared for entering the tribulation

If answered, then I will take the discussion to the next question

They are not to go out. It will not be by power or might sayeth the Lord but by His Spirit

It's just that some do not know of whose spirit they truly are of

Unfortunately there will be those who will not hold to the testimony of Jesus and will "go out"

But remember this God who is sovereign said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword even as He said those destined for the sword are destined for the sword

 

[miknik5]

What should they do?
Philippians 4 and as well not to look left and right at trouble and woes but to keep their eyes firmly on Him though He may delay will no longer delay but come straightway

Blessed the man who waits 1335 days and keeps his garment with him

 

[Charlie24]

I have discovered that it is better to only give you one question at a time and not go forward until that one question is answered

I am not satisfied with your rendition of Zechariah 13

I want to step back to Zechariah 12 and read it in context to Zechariah 12 and Zechariah 13

Zechariah had several visions in one night. They all intertwine with one another and are not in chronological order.

I would read up on this to better understand why the book jumps from one vision to another. It can be very confusing if the visions are not categorized to create the theme.

I studied it many years ago in school. I have the theme in mind, but its been a while. It takes study to get it. The word of God requires rolling up the sleeves and getting your hands dirty, so to speak. There was a time when I loved it, I'm getting lazy now and missing the drive.

 

[miknik5]

Zechariah had several visions in one night. They all intertwine with one another and are not in chronological order.

I would read up on this to better understand why the book jumps from one vision to another. It can be very confusing if the visions are not categorized to create the theme.

I studied it many years ago in school. I have the theme in mind, but its been a while. It takes study to get it. The word of God requires rolling up the sleeves and getting your hands dirty, so to speak. There was a time when I loved it, I'm getting lazy now and missing the drive.

I don't want to discuss this anymore
I truly hope that you won't anymore either

It has done Nothing but cause confusion showing nothing more than no one knows the hour and the day so what type of people should we be as we wait knowing and understanding that the labor pains before that time will be great.

 

[miknik5]

Shouldn't we be doing what we were called to do?
Pointing all to THE REFUGE?

 

[miknik5]

Here's the thing that I think many overlook. This is not a closed discussion It is open. On an open forum with many ears listening in. All it is doing is adding confusion and representing those who say they know God and all the hidden things of God as confused and in disagreement with one another. We are discussing something that will happen but more importantly there are many who have not first entered in by Way of THE DOOR now while it is still today

 

[Straightshot]

Your quote from Daniel 12 is misapplied

It is directed to Daniel's people of Israel only who will be in the time of Jacob's trouble during the coming tribulation [Jeremiah 30; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

A remnant part of the nation will turn, believe, and experience the conditions of the coming tribulation .... and the Lord will bring 1/3 of the nation through the fire [Zechariah 13:8-9] .... the other 2/3 will remain in unbelief and killed during the period

These surviving mortals of Israel will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth which He will personally rule from Jerusalem [Micah 4;1-3; 5]

It sounds to me by your postings that you are mixing the Lord's nation of Israel with the "church" of today

His view is very different and His intent is still to bring the 1/3 of Israel at the time under is covenant at the time [Ezekiel 20:34-44] .... this He will do .... not doubt

And this future event for Israel has nothing to do with your religious organization from which you have been taught in error .... your "church" is not national ethnic Israel