Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise
17.After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.(this is that ONE SHALL BE TAKEN)



Of course Lot was not raptured, you dont understand rapture is for the believers of Jesus.

Hi AL. Thanks for your response. We're suggesting that there is more to the story than being raptured. The reference to Lot was to give some context there there is more to being taken than disappearing up into the sky. Lot could have stayed and been destroyed, but he listened to the warnings and believed God. He left, and he did so quickly as soon as God told him to. God didn't miraculously whisk him away. Lot had to make a choice to listen to God and obey. If the saints are raptured before the tribulation, then how can they which are on the housetop refrain from going down to get their stuff (i.e. when they should be fleeing quickly)?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi there. It has some good points.

Thanks Lk17

We can't turn back or we won't be saved. One of the ways a person can turn back is by trying to save his life or refusing to lose his life for the sake of Christ (v. 33). This is one reason why pre-tribulation rapture is so harmful. It puts people in a mindset of trying to save their lives.

Fantastic assessment. Completely consistent with the spirit of Jesus' teachings. The pre-trib doctrine could be helpful in that it should cause people to be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, but that is rarely the case. In nearly every circumstance the argument is made on the basis that the Lord would not dare to ask his follower to die for, or even suffer for their faith. The whole argument is based on avoiding discomfort.

While it is true that God is going to protect the woman in the wilderness for 42 months, it most likely refers to the 144,000 Israelites who are faithful followers of the Lamb, who are sealed on the forehead and protected from the plagues. Since we can't assume to be one of these, it's best not to expect to survive the Tribulation.

Protection is not absolute, and God seems to have different ideas of protection than what we do. In Luke 21 Jesus talks about how his followers will be betrayed by friends and family (i.e. those closest to us, meaning those with the most ability to hurt us), that we will be dragged before authorities, hated and scorned by all people, and kill, BUT...not a hair of your head will be harmed.

Obviously he's making a distinction between physical harm and spiritual harm. Our physical bodies will be killed, but so what? We won't be harmed. There is no guarantee that those 144k won't also be persecuted and eventually killed. They have some miraculous protection, true, but there still follow the same principles as other Christians who are not in their ranks and if anything, they are more likely to die (eventually) because they are more sincere in their commitment. This is the spirit of the "seek to keep will lose and seek to lose will gain" teaching; it is our willingness to die that shows the world we really do have something better.

 

[Luke17:37]

Hi SS. Thanks for those comments, though they come across a little inconsistent to me. You suggest at least one problem with post tribulation rapture is that there won't be any moral believers left to populate his kingdom on the earth. What about a post tribulation rapture suggests that believers won't still be around? Revelation 19 talks about the marriage supper of the lamb, with all the saints partying up in heaven (just after the rapture) and then coming down with Jesus for the battle of Armageddon.

The Revelation also talks about a giant "city" which comes down out of Heaven and how the armies of the earth will gather together to fight against God. Apparently, this will be the battle of Armageddon. But after all this, what indication do you have that the saints will not still be there with Jesus during his millennial reign over the earth?

Both Paul and Jesus made references to the saints ruling the nations. You yourself suggest that there will be mortals who will disobey, though the believers will not. Revelation 21:24 says the Kings of the earth will bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem which, by that time, will be on earth (i.e. the one that came down out of heaven and for which specific measurements were given). But then verse 27 says that no one who who defiles or makes abominations will enter the city, only those who's names were written. Based on this, there must be mortals left on the earth, and the "Kings of the Earth" who "go into the city" must be the resurrected saints who will be responsible for teaching and judging humanity during the 1000 years, just as Paul suggested.

There will be mortals and immortals. The mortals will procreate and the immortals will lead and teach. I do not understand how your reasoning works according to this information.

You're mixing things. The New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) doesn't come down until after the millennial reign of Christ, the judgment, and the casting of the wicked into the Lake of Fire, and after the earth has been made new (Rev 21:1). It's dimensions are huge--way larger than the footprint of Israel in the millennium (see Ezekiel 47-48). Also, there's no more sea (compare with Ezekiel 47-48). And there's no more death (compare with Isaiah 65, when someone dying at 100 is thought to be a child).

This is not necessarily for you, as it seems you agree, but maybe with others who see people as resurrected-gathered OR killed:

Do you have children? Are all your children followers of Christ? If so, that is great, but many Christians have minor children who aren't converted. Say a Christian couple had some young children who had not yet decided to follow Christ or not, and perhaps were too young to rebel and put their parents to death, which will happen in the Tribulation. Or what about very young people 0-3 or whatever--children of the damned, even? Those children won't be gathered and changed immortal at Jesus' return, but they won't necessarily die, either. Maybe some of the glorified believers are entrusted to raise them in the millennial kingdom. And it doesn't say that Jesus will kill every wicked person immediately. The only thing made clear is that He will kill the vast army that is gathered in the land of Israel to oppose Him (see Revelation 19:21). And He suggested that dead bodies (with vultures eating them) would be a mark of His return. Zechariah 14:16 makes it clear that there will be survivors from the nations. That doesn't require pre-Trib, or deny post-Trib.

 

[Luke17:37]

Thanks Lk17



Fantastic assessment. Completely consistent with the spirit of Jesus' teachings. The pre-trib doctrine could be helpful in that it should cause people to be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, but that is rarely the case. In nearly every circumstance the argument is made on the basis that the Lord would not dare to ask his follower to die for, or even suffer for their faith. The whole argument is based on avoiding discomfort.



Protection is not absolute, and God seems to have different ideas of protection than what we do. In Luke 21 Jesus talks about how his followers will be betrayed by friends and family (i.e. those closest to us, meaning those with the most ability to hurt us), that we will be dragged before authorities, hated and scorned by all people, and kill, BUT...not a hair of your head will be harmed.

Obviously he's making a distinction between physical harm and spiritual harm. Our physical bodies will be killed, but so what? We won't be harmed. There is no guarantee that those 144k won't also be persecuted and eventually killed. They have some miraculous protection, true, but there still follow the same principles as other Christians who are not in their ranks and if anything, they are more likely to die (eventually) because they are more sincere in their commitment. This is the spirit of the "seek to keep will lose and seek to lose will gain" teaching; it is our willingness to die that shows the world we really do have something better.

You're welcome.

Yes, there's no guarantee the 144,000 will all survive, but Jesus is clear there will be some survivors who will be gathered (Matthew 24:31, 1 Thesssalonians 4:15-17) when Jesus returns.

 

[miknik5]

Hi SS. Thanks for those comments, though they come across a little inconsistent to me. You suggest at least one problem with post tribulation rapture is that there won't be any moral believers left to populate his kingdom on the earth. What about a post tribulation rapture suggests that believers won't still be around? Revelation 19 talks about the marriage supper of the lamb, with all the saints partying up in heaven (just after the rapture) and then coming down with Jesus for the battle of Armageddon.

The Revelation also talks about a giant "city" which comes down out of Heaven and how the armies of the earth will gather together to fight against God. Apparently, this will be the battle of Armageddon. But after all this, what indication do you have that the saints will not still be there with Jesus during his millennial reign over the earth?

heaven and for which specific

t

You're mixing things. The New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) doesn't come down until after the millennial reign of Christ, the judgment, and the casting of the wicked into the Lake of Fire, and after the earth has been made new (Rev 21:1). It's dimensions are huge--way larger than the footprint of Israel in the millennium (see Ezekiel 47-48). Also, there's no more sea (compare with Ezekiel 47-48). And there's no more death (compare with Isaiah 65, when someone dying at 100 is thought to be a child).

This is not necessarily for you, as it seems you agree, but maybe with others who see people as resurrected-gathered OR killed:

Do you have children? Are all your children followers of Christ? If so, that is great, but many Christians have minor children who aren't converted. Say a Christian couple had some young children who had not yet decided to follow Christ or not, and perhaps were too young to rebel and put their parents to death, which will happen in the Tribulation. Or what about very young people 0-3 or whatever--children of the damned, even? Those children won't be gathered and changed immortal at Jesus' return, but they won't necessarily die, either. Maybe some of the glorified believers are entrusted to raise them in the millennial kingdom. And it doesn't say that Jesus will kill every wicked person immediately. The only thing made clear is that He will kill the vast army that is gathered in the land of Israel to oppose Him (see Revelation 19:21). And He suggested that dead bodies (with vultures eating them) would be a mark of His return. Zechariah 14:16 makes it clear that there will be survivors from the nations. That doesn't require pre-Trib, or deny post-Trib.

i think we need to review what happened after the false prophet and false Christ are cast into the lake of fire. Those men who died are dead and in their graves until after the last battle

There is too much confusion mixing the 1000 year reign (the battle just before it where ONLY the false Christ and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire) all who have died are not resurrected until Satan is set free after the 1000 year reign. To gather the "kings" of the earth for the great battle.
After this battle then Satan is cast into the lake of fire the dead (all the dead ) are raised and the books are opened

Those whose names are not found are cast into the lake of fire (this is the second and final death ) and then death is finally destroyed

All that is left are the vessels Holy to the Lord who will enter the New Jerusalem where there is nothing impure that will ever again enter its gates

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, she's got it wrong. Until she realizes that Matt. 24 is written specifically for Israel, she will not understand.
But that's ok, at least we all believe there will be a rapture.

I'm guessing I'm the, "she" you're talking about. Jesus said gave these words to His disciples, and it hasn't been fulfilled. I'm one of His disciples, so it's for me. If all His church flew away, who would He be warning/instructing in Matthew 24:4, 6, 9-13, 15-16, 23-26?

 

[miknik5]

When the birds eat the flesh of those who died outside of Christ just prior to the 1000 year reign, these are dead physically but have not yet suffered the second death and will not suffer the second death until they are raised up along with all the dead after the 1000 year reign and the final battle as mentioned in revelation 20

 

[miknik5]

I'm guessing I'm the, "she" you're talking about. Jesus said gave these words to His disciples, and it hasn't been fulfilled. I'm one of His disciples, so it's for me. If all His church flew away, who would He be warning/instructing in Matthew 24:4, 6, 9-13, 15-16, 23-26?

As well who would HE be warning in revelation 1-3 to "overcome"

 

[Luke17:37]

i think we need to review what happened after the false prophet and false Christ are cast into the lake of fire. Those men who died are dead and in their graves until after the last battle

There is too much confusion mixing the 1000 year reign (the battle just before it where ONLY the false Christ and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire) all who have died are not resurrected until Satan is set free after the 1000 year reign. To gather the "kings" of the earth for the great battle.
After this battle then Satan is cast into the lake of fire the dead (all the dead ) are raised and the books are opened

Those whose names are not found are cast into the lake of fire (this is the second and final death ) and then death is finally destroyed

All that is left are the vessels Holy to the Lord who will enter the New Jerusalem where there is nothing impure that will ever again enter its gates

I think you are trying to draw the line between Rev 19:20 (the beast and false prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire) and Rev 20:10 (the devil being cast into the Lake of Fire, 1,000 years or so later) and Revelation 20:15 (those not written in the Lamb's book of life being thrown into the Lake of Fire after the White Throne Judgment).

The best thing is just to read Revelation 19-21 and notice the passage of time.

 

[miknik5]

I have no idea or position on the rapture. All I have been given to understand is to remain in Him and to not "go out" from Him

 

[miknik5]

I think you are trying to draw the line between Rev 19:20 (the beast and false prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire) and Rev 20:10 (the devil being cast into the Lake of Fire, 1,000 years or so later) and Revelation 20:15 (those not written in the Lamb's book of life being thrown into the Lake of Fire after the White Throne Judgment).

The best thing is just to read Revelation 19-21 and notice the passage of time.

I am trying to tell you that all who have physically died will not be raised until the last battle as mentioned in revelation 20

I am also trying to remind the living today that there is a First resurrection and a second resurrection

It is much better by far to have a part in the First Resurrection which is why the Gospel is preached now and to the living

 

[Luke17:37]

When the birds eat the flesh of those who died outside of Christ just prior to the 1000 year reign, these are dead physically but have not yet suffered the second death and will not suffer the second death until they are raised up along with all the dead after the 1000 year reign and the final battle as mentioned in revelation 20

Exactly. Only the beast and false prophet will go into the Lake of Fire when Jesus returns. Those who are killed don't go there until after a thousand years at least.

 

[Luke17:37]

I am trying to tell you that all who have physically died will not be raised until the last battle as mentioned in revelation 20

Okay; I know that and I agree with you. The reason I wrote ES is because he suggested that New Jersulem came out of heaven when Jesus returns (Rev 19). But there's actually a thousand years and judgment (Rev 20) before that happens (Rev 21).

 

[miknik5]

if one is in Christ they are in Christ and their work is to grow on their knowledge of Him so that they will be able to discern the works wrought in God from the works wrought of "another father"

In this way they will remember it is not by power or by might but by HisSpirit

And if we claim to be of His Spirit we must in all things represent His Spirit and hold to the Testimony of Jesus

 

[miknik5]

Okay; I know that. The reason I wrote ES is because he suggested that New Jersulem came out of heaven when Jesus returns (Rev 19). But there's actually a thousand years and judgment before that happens.

I have edited and added to my post with regards to the First resurrection and those who have a part in the First resurrection and why men are sitting on the fence and waiting

 

[miknik5]

we can study post tribulation or pre tribulation. We can talk about it til we are blue in the face but if one has not entered
First into The Refuge which God has provided in His Son then he is outside The Door and has no refuge

 

[miknik5]

Exactly. Only the beast and false prophet will go into the Lake of Fire when Jesus returns. Those who are killed don't go there until after a thousand years at least.

Yes and only those who had a part in the first resurrection are First resurrected during the 1000 year reign

John 5 clearly made a distinction between those who have heard the voice of the son of God now from those who will in the heat the voice of the son of God and be raised up either to condemnation or to life

This is what He meant when He said a time will come when All will hear the voice of the Son of God

Not all while they are living have heard the voice of the son of God

Those who have and have heard the Gospel and have believed have already passed from death to Life and will not come into condemnation

 

[miknik5]

None go into the lake of fire until all are raised up after the 1000 year reign and the great battle. Then are all the dead raised and judged

 

[miknik5]

The reason the birds will feast on those whose bodies lay dead before the 1000 year reign is because the blood of the saints were found in them

Those who died and were martyred at the hands of men who did not know God will be judged fleshly as well as spiritually when they are raised up in the great judgement

I do not believe they will escape the second dearh

 

[miknik5]

Why am I telling people this?

Because it might save those who will reconsider that their works are NOT in service to God. That uprooting anything before the time is NOT allowed of any man. And any man who thinks that they can uproot thinking it is somehow in service to GOD will be judged

Not by power or by might Sayeth the Lord
But by My Spirit
His Spirit
Not our own

And yet we know that those destined for the sword are destined for the sword