Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Charlie24]

Whst do you make of those who did not have enough oil ?

They will enter into the tribulation

But they knew the Truth.

Could they possibly fall back from following the Lord?

Or will they hold to the testimony of Jesus and therefore be killed

Are these included in with those who did not love their lives even to the death.

Falling back from the Lord is the message of Hebrews.

Those who are not ready will enter the Tribulation and it will cost them their lives to hold the testimony of Christ.

 

[miknik5]

i believe that there will be those who will rise in the judgement (who did not have a part in the first resurrection) whose names will be found in the book of Life

I am drawn to the verse where it is said blessed are those who die in the lord from now on.

Falling back from the Lord is the message of Hebrews.

Those who are not ready will enter the Tribulation and it will cost them their lives to hold the testimony of Christ.

what do you mean is the message from Hebrews?

The reminder that we have a High Priest. And that we do not need to revert back to sacrifices to clear our conscience

Was the letter to the Hebrews written during the time when the earthly temple had been destroyed?

 

[Charlie24]

i believe that there will be those who will rise in the judgement (who did not have a part in the resurrection) whose names will be found in the book of Life

I drawn to the verse where it is said blessed

what do you mean is the message from Hebrews?

The reminder that we have a High Priest. And that we do not need to revert back to sacrifices to clear our conscience

Was the letter to the Hebrews written during the time when the earthly temple had been destroyed?

I'm in the camp that believes Paul wrote Hebrews, regardless of that, Hebrews was written to the Jews as a warning from departing from God.

The author (I believe to be Paul) makes it clear that many who accepted Christ had turned back and were turning back to temple worship, Judaism.

 

[miknik5]

I'm in the camp that believes Paul wrote Hebrews, regardless of that, Hebrews was written to the Jews as a warning from departing from God.

The author (I believe to be Paul) makes it clear that many who accepted Christ had turned back and were turning back to temple worship, Judaism.

Got it. I was under the impression that they were confused with the temple destroyed on what they were supposed to do and somehow couldn't make the connection that One Sacrifice is sufficient since the High Priest who entered in by the True Veil lives forever to make intercession for all those who come to Him through faith in His Blood

 

[miknik5]

Can you refer to the chapter where you understood that some of the believing Jews were falling back to the temple rituals.

 

[Straightshot]

"Those who are not ready will enter the Tribulation and it will cost them their lives to hold the testimony of Christ"

Correct .... these will face a very tough and deceptive environment which will not be conducive to their turning, and those who do not turn will be killed in the tribulation and will be lost forever .... it will simply be too late for them to react

These with no oil of Matthew 25:1-3 and Revelation 3:15-19 are professing Christians only and not saved in the first place .... these will be void of the Lord's holy spirit at the time

The divides of professing Christianity are full to the brim with them today who think they are saved and are not .... they do not possess the truth and have not been born again [John 3]

This is why they are told to seek the experience for themselves .... these will be of the "lukewarm" caught sleeping and not ready [unsaved]

And the same will find themselves on the wrong side of the door and in the tribulation .... and the Lord tells them that they must repent for He has spit them out and closed the door .... however, He knocks and they can still be saved during the tribulation .... but only if they turn to Him

These pretenders of whom many have been deceived by their religious affiliations simply did not earnestly seek the truth about His offer of salvation, but relied upon what they were taught by others and by their own neglect .... they did not seek Him and His required experience of being born again

 

[miknik5]

I'm not sure that I am In agreement about those who do not turn being lost forever.

When you say "do not turn". You mean they refuse to take the mark of the beast?

 

[Charlie24]

Can you refer to the chapter where you understood that some of the believing Jews were falling back to the temple rituals.

We know there were thousands of Jews who accepted Christ as the Messiah, but still held to the law of Moses.
When Paul came to Jerusalem to see the brethren, the Judaizers laid in wait to kill him because Paul spoke against the law of Moses.
Acts 21:20-21
"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

Now I ask you, is there a gospel for the Jew and another for the Gentile. NO, there is not. This is the framework of the book of Hebrews. A new and better covenant with better promises.
The Christian Jews were being persecuted by the Judaizers because of the law of Moses that Paul said the Christian gentiles were not to do. They hounded Paul throughout his entire ministry holding to the law. In fear of the Judaizers, the Christian Jews were turning back.
Paul compares the priest of the old covenant to the priest of the new covenant, the animal sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ. Paul is telling the Christian Jews that Christ has met the demands of the law and He Himself is now the High Priest and Mediator. He tells them that if the first covenant had been sufficient, there would be no need for a second. Remember that Paul is speaking to the Jews who have accepted Christ.
He warns them against letting the New Testament slip away (2:1-4), against hardening the heart against the Holy Spirit (3:7-19) against falling away (5:11-6:12), against committing the willful sin of treading underfoot the Son of God, counting His Blood as common Blood, and doing insult to the Holy Spirit (10:26-29), all this being involved in the act of renouncing professed faith in Christ and returning to the Levitical sacrifices.

 

[miknik5]

We know there were thousands of Jews who accepted Christ as the Messiah, but still held to the law of Moses.
When Paul came to Jerusalem to see the brethren, the Judaizers laid in wait to kill him because Paul spoke against the law of Moses.
Acts 21:20-21
"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."

Now I ask you, is there a gospel for the Jew and another for the Gentile. NO, there is not. This is the framework of the book of Hebrews. A new and better covenant with better promises.
The Christian Jews were being persecuted by the Judaizers because of the law of Moses that Paul said the Christian gentiles were not to do. They hounded Paul throughout his entire ministry holding to the law. In fear of the Judaizers, the Christian Jews were turning back.
Paul compares the priest of the old covenant to the priest of the new covenant, the animal sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ. Paul is telling the Christian Jews that Christ has met the demands of the law and He Himself is now the High Priest and Mediator. He tells them that if the first covenant had been sufficient, there would be no need for a second. Remember that Paul is speaking to the Jews who have accepted Christ.
He warns them against letting the New Testament slip away (2:1-4), against hardening the heart against the Holy Spirit (3:7-19) against falling away (5:11-6:12), against committing the willful sin of treading underfoot the Son of God, counting His Blood as common Blood, and doing insult to the Holy Spirit (10:26-29), all this being involved in the act of renouncing professed faith in Christ and returning to the Levitical sacrifices.

Will another temple be built and with it the reinstatement of sacrifices for sin and Guilt


And please forgive me I am on a handheld phone and realize my recent post to you were quite unreadable.

I can not stand autocorrect and the whole portion of what I was referring you to where it says blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on was completely cut off with only blessed

It is making me look like some imbecile

 

[Straightshot]

"When you say "do not turn". You mean they refuse to take the mark of the beast?"

No ..... those who do not turn to the Lord for their salvation after finding themselves in the tribulation

All must turn to Him for salvation, He is the only way by which a man can be saved

This will be true during the coming tribulation just as it is today .... and most of those who do not turn will be killed and lost forever

He will still continue to offer His salvation during the period for those that will turn [Revelation 6:2]

There will be a few who will survive the tribulation as mortals and if they did not turn in the tribulation, He will reject them [Matthew 25:31-46]

 

[Straightshot]

"Will another temple be built and with it the reinstatement of sacrifices for sin and Guilt"

Not before or during the coming tribulation .... He said that not one stone would be left standing during the tribulation .... there has not been and still is not [Revelation 11:2] .... the mount "without" his temple

His next temple will be built after the days of the tribulation for His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Ezekiel 40]

He will require ritual sacrifices during the period, but only for a symbolic reminder of His own sacrifice on the cross before .... there will be mortal populations in the kingdom who will need salvation just like people do today

And the temple on the mount today is that of the Muslim Dome of the Rock of the false "god" Allah .... this is the temple that Satan's "man of Lawlessness" will sit in during the tribulation [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

 

[Charlie24]

Paul said the man of sin (the anti-christ) will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God. The Dome of the Rock is not the temple of God, and never will be. I believe a temple will be built.

Where and how, I don't know. But I do believe the anti-christ will have something to do with it being built, probably during the first half of the tribulation, just before turning on Israel. It is the determination of the anti-christ to destroy God's chosen people. He came close in WW11 using Hitler to kill some 6 million Jews. He will gain their trust and then destroy them, but not all. The Second Coming will stop him.

 

[miknik5]

"Will another temple be built and with it the reinstatement of sacrifices for sin and Guilt"

Not before or during the coming tribulation .... He said that not one stone would be left standing during the tribulation .... there has not been and still is not [Revelation 11:2] .... the mount "without" his temple

His next temple will be built after the days of the tribulation for His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Ezekiel 40]

He will require ritual sacrifices during the period, but only for a symbolic reminder of His own sacrifice on the cross before .... there will be mortal populations in the kingdom who will need salvation just like people do today

And the temple on the mount today is that of the Muslim Dome of the Rock of the false "god" Allah .... this is the temple that Satan's "man of Lawlessness" will sit in during the tribulation [2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Ritual sacrifices of what?
Animals?

Why?

 

[miknik5]

Paul said the man of sin (the anti-christ) will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God. The Dome of the Rock is not the temple of God, and never will be. I believe a temple will be built.

Where and how, I don't know. But I do believe the anti-christ will have something to do with it being built, probably during the first half of the tribulation, just before turning on Israel. It is the determination of the anti-christ to destroy God's chosen people. He came close in WW11 using Hitler to kill some 6 million Jews. He will gain their trust and then destroy them, but not all. The Second Coming will stop him.

This is whst I believe as well

 

[Luke17:37]

That's right! Jesus doesn't mention the rapture in Matt. 24, all of this happens immediately after the rapture. Christ comes back to the rapture beginning in chp. 25 with the parable of the ten virgins.

Matt. 25:6
"And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

This is the rapture.

vs. 7-9
"Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves."

The oil represents the Holy Spirit. These were the foolish who departed from the truth and lost their souls, no longer led by the Spirit of God.

vs. 10
"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

The marriage spoken of here is the marriage supper of the Lamb for those who were ready when the Lord came. "The door was shut," and now Matt. 24 begins.

Jesus didn't say there's a rapture before the Tribulation. The rapture, or the gathering, happens after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Christians will experience the Tribulation, but many will be unprepared in various ways and will fall away from their faith (Matthew 24:9-12). Only those who endure in their faith will be saved (Matthew 24:13).

Have you thought about what difference there is between the wise and foolish virgins? Why did the foolish lack sufficient oil to last until the bridegroom came? From my perspective, I think it's because they assumed he would come earlier in the night. However, the wise virgins had extra oil--they were prepared for a long wait. All ten looked forward to the bridegroom's coming, and all ten had oil to start with, but only five--half--actually entered into the wedding feast. People can't share oil--each person has an individual salvation. You know what I think? The pre-tribulation rapture idea may very well lead half of the world's Christians into committing apostasy during the Tribulation. Pre-tribulation rapture proponents are assuming He will come for them before the Tribulation, so they are ill prepared for Tribulation living (and dying). Also, when the Lord returns, the door is shut and there's no second chance for the foolish ones.

 

[Straightshot]

You have it backwards and are adding things that simply are not there .... but I am sure that the Lord will accommodate you if you think you need to be judged by His unprecedented wrath upon an unbelieving world .... His true ecclesia are already saved and do not need His anger upon them .... and obviously neither will the dead in Christ experience the same at the time

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, she's got it wrong. Until she realizes that Matt. 24 is written specifically for Israel, she will not understand.
But that's ok, at least we all believe there will be a rapture.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Although I disagree with a lot of what you said, I like that you brought up the point about Lot's wife. However, after that point you seemed to lose focus a little bit. Or maybe I lost focus. Not sure which. Perhaps the video should only be two minutes long, and focus on your one strong point that people will remember.

Hi LastSeven. Sorry for taking long to get back to you. Thanks for watching and commenting on the video. What was it about the "Lot's wife" part that you liked?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

"One will be taken and the other left" is not referring to the rapture,

Agreed. We're suggesting the "one taken while the other is left" is referring to God calling and, while one responds to the calling, the other does not. Mt 24 is about the "end time" in general. His disciples ask, "what will it look like when you return". "Follow me and don't turn back" was an important part of Jesus' message.

Consider the parable in chapter 25, where the host invites the guests to the wedding party but the guests make excuses. One had just bought new animals, another a new piece plot of land and the other had just gotten married; they all asked to be excused because they were too busy withe their day-to-day lives.

But then the servants called the poor and strangers so the host's house could be full. Some were taken (the poor and strangers) while some were left (those who rejected the call).

 

[Endtime Survivors]

My comment

Post-tribulation thinking has many flaws .... but here is just one

If all living believers will be made immortal just after the days of the Lord's coming tribulation and judgment upon the earth, then there will be no moral believers left to [procreate] populate His Millennial kingdom upon the earth .... but there will be

An immortal believer cannot be deceived by Satan [Revelation 20:1-3; 20:7-8]

Immortal believers will not disobey the Lord's dictates during His millennial kingdom .... but there will be mortals who will [Zechariah 14:8-19]

Hi SS. Thanks for those comments, though they come across a little inconsistent to me. You suggest at least one problem with post tribulation rapture is that there won't be any moral believers left to populate his kingdom on the earth. What about a post tribulation rapture suggests that believers won't still be around? Revelation 19 talks about the marriage supper of the lamb, with all the saints partying up in heaven (just after the rapture) and then coming down with Jesus for the battle of Armageddon.

The Revelation also talks about a giant "city" which comes down out of Heaven and how the armies of the earth will gather together to fight against God. Apparently, this will be the battle of Armageddon. But after all this, what indication do you have that the saints will not still be there with Jesus during his millennial reign over the earth?

Both Paul and Jesus made references to the saints ruling the nations. You yourself suggest that there will be mortals who will disobey, though the believers will not. Revelation 21:24 says the Kings of the earth will bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem which, by that time, will be on earth (i.e. the one that came down out of heaven and for which specific measurements were given). But then verse 27 says that no one who who defiles or makes abominations will enter the city, only those who's names were written. Based on this, there must be mortals left on the earth, and the "Kings of the Earth" who "go into the city" must be the resurrected saints who will be responsible for teaching and judging humanity during the 1000 years, just as Paul suggested.

There will be mortals and immortals. The mortals will procreate and the immortals will lead and teach. I do not understand how your reasoning works according to this information.