Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Luke17:37]

I have no idea or position on the rapture. All I have been given to understand is to remain in Him and to not "go out" from Him

Hi Miknik,

I was taught pre-tribulation rapture before I even became a Christian (I remember daydreaming about it as a 4-year-old child). Pre-tribulation rapture is what most people think of when they say the word, "rapture."

As you probably know, the Bible doesn't use that word. And, as I learned when I was a teenager, Jesus never taught pre-tribulation rapture.

He did teach of the gathering of the surviving elect, at His return, after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 tells us that the gathering of the surviving believers won't precede the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) includes people who were beheaded in the Tribulation because of their witness to Jesus and because of the word of God, and they didn't take the mark of the beast, which is enforced during the Tribulation (Revelation 14:15-17). Since there's no gathering before the resurrection, and since the first resurrection includes the Tribulation martyrs, pre-Tribulation rapture cannot be true. The Bible teaches a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering. The Bible also teaches that few Christians will physically survive the Tribulation, but what is important is to spiritually survive (to endure in faith no matter what, as you said, even if we are physically killed).

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, refers to the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" as "that Day" (singular) and "the day of Christ" in 2 Thessalonians 2, so he ties the coming and gathering together, too, just like Jesus did in Matthew 24:30-31.

To avoid all the pre-tribulation connotations associated with the word, "rapture," and since it's not used in the Bible anyway, I prefer to call it the post-tribulation resurrection-gathering, and it happens at the coming of Christ.

 

[Luke17:37]

None go into the lake of fire until all are raised up after the 1000 year reign and the great battle. Then are all the dead raised and judged

None except the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 19:20).

 

[miknik5]

Hi Miknik,

I was taught pre-tribulation rapture before I even became a Christian (I remember daydreaming about it as a 4-year-old child). Pre-tribulation rapture what most people think of when they say the word, "rapture."

As you probably know, the Bible doesn't use that word. And, as I learned when I was a teenager, Jesus never taught pre-tribulation rapture.

He did teach of the gathering of the surviving elect, at His return, after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 tells us that the gathering of the surviving believers won't precede the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) includes people who were beheaded in the Tribulation because of their witness to Jesus and because of the word of God, and they didn't take the mark of the beast, which is enforced during the Tribulation (Revelation 14:15-17). Since there's no gathering before the resurrection, and since the first resurrection includes the Tribulation martyrs, pre-Tribulation rapture cannot be true. The Bible teaches a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering. The Bible also teaches that few Christians will physically survive the Tribulation, but what is important is to spiritually survive (to endure in faith no matter what, as you said, even if we are physically killed).

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, refers to the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" as "that Day" (singular) and "the day of Christ" in 2 Thessalonians 2, so he ties the coming and gathering together, too, just like Jesus did in Matthew 24:30-31.

To avoid all the pre-tribulation connotations associated with the word, "rapture," and since it's not used in the Bible anyway, I prefer to call it the post-tribulation resurrection-gathering, and it happens at the coming of Christ.

Good point!
Thank you. I agree
Further it is written blessed are those who die in the lord from now on

Those who did not love their lives to the death but held to the testimony of Jesus

Yes I agree that these are included in the first resurrection because they too have the right wedding garment

If they didn't they couldn't come to the wedding

 

[miknik5]

None except the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 19:20).

That's before the 1000 year reign. I was talking about just before the great judgement when all the dead (except of course the false prophet and false Christ) are raised and the books are opened and whoever of all the dead name is not found on the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

There will be a few mortal survivors of the tribulation .... and He will separate them, believing from unbelieving

Those found believing and who supported Israel in the tribulation [His brethren] will enter His millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals .... those found in unbelief will not [Matthew 25:31-46] .... there will be no resurrections to immortality for anyone during the gatherings

The believing will procreate and nations will develop from the aftermath of the tribulation and these will be mortals .... only mortal humans can be deceived by Satan .... the immortal of the Lord's true ecclesia will rule with Him over these nations during a period when Satan will be unable to deceive them

Those who will rule over the millennial kingdom will consist of the pre-tribulation immortals [those already on thrones], and those who will become believers during the period and martyred for their faith [Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4] .... these will be resurrected just at the end of the tribulation

The argument against any pre-tribulation changing to immortality is moot .... the evidence for this is clear

Revelation is a series of individual visions and some subjects are layered giving more details related to the subject

The pre-tribulation immortals are seen several times as during the tribulation upon the earth as Revelation unfolds [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Post-tribulation thinking is not valid for a number of reasons and those who hold it should consider the above teaching as the correct one for a number of other reasons

The coming tribulation is for punishing a world of unbelief and not testing believers already saved and living at the time [Jude 1] .... neither can the dead in Christ before be subjected

There is a difference between the trials and tribulations of this present life and the coming unprecedented tribulation of the Lord's wrath upon a world completely void of belief in Jesus Christ

Will any during the tribulation turn to Him? absolutely, but few .... this truth is documented in Revelation's unfolding .... the period will not be conducive for repentance .... much distraction, and deceptions will abound [Revelation 6:12-17; 12:12]

Teaching against the Lord's promise is not a good idea so those of you who do or have reservation need to know His purpose .... you also need to know that Satan can and will take advantage [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; Revelation 18:4]

I can tell you that you do not want to miss the event .... but if you do and find yourself under the Lord's judgment of the tribulation to realize what you have done and turn to Him [Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[Charlie24]

I'm not going to argue with those who are hell-bent on facing the wrath of God intended for unbelievers.
Paul settled it for me when he addressed the Thessalonian church. They, as many here, are confused about the resurrection.

1Thes. 5:9-11
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

So, I will comfort you with these words, if you have obtained the salvation of the Lord, you will not face the wrath of God.

 

[miknik5]

I'm not going to argue with those who are hell-bent on facing the wrath of God intended for unbelievers.
Paul settled it for me when he addressed the Thessalonian church. They, as many here, are confused about the resurrection.

1Thes. 5:9-11
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

So, I will comfort you with these words, if you have obtained the salvation of the Lord, you will not face the wrath of God.

Nobody wants to face the wrath of GOD,sir...but HE said, what is it that we should tarry until HE comes...we are to keep our eyes on HIM...
Further sir, 2thesselonians 2 implies that HE will be taken out of the way, just before the man of lawlessness is revealed...then will evil run rampant...and that sir, is a 3 1/2 remainder time period of the 7 year tribulation period...

So the first 3 1/2 years, HE will still be in the world, holding back so that evil does not have full reign..

Who do you think convicts the world of sin?
And who do you think will pay the ultimate price for convicting the world of sin but those who are born of HIS SPIRIT...

But...when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way, there will be NO ONE (and THE HOLY SPIRIT will not be convicting the world) to convict men of their sin...

 

[miknik5]

I'm not going to argue with those who are hell-bent on facing the wrath of God intended for unbelievers.
Paul settled it for me when he addressed the Thessalonian church. They, as many here, are confused about the resurrection.

1Thes. 5:9-11
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

So, I will comfort you with these words, if you have obtained the salvation of the Lord, you will not face the wrath of God.

No. Of course not...we WON'T face the wrath of GOD...let there be NO confusion that those marked as belonging to GOD BELONG TO GOD...but HE did say that in this world you will have trouble...HE did forewarn that some will be cast into prison by satan...but to be faithful...

Faithfulness means understanding that these things will come upon us by the hands of wicked men who do not know nor have a love for the TRUTH...

Not by the hand of GOD...
And not to lose hope, but to wait and to trust and keep our eyes on HIM...who though HE may delay (though HE may be hiding HIS FACE temporarily from "Jacob's troubles" will no longer delay but will come straightway.

Job knew HIS REDEEMER lived...ahd he knew even if his flesh may wear away, still and even in his flesh, he would see HIM standing upon the earth in the Last Day...

Job faced a lot...a lot of troubles...but he would not listen to the words of his friends, nor his foolish wife who told him to curse/blame GOD...

That is what many will do who do not understand that GOD is FAITHFUL, HIS SPIRIT does not change...and what HE promised (though HE may delay) HE will bring to pass.

Blessed all those who wait for HIM and keep their garments with them!

 

[Charlie24]

Nobody wants to face the wrath of GOD,sir...but HE said, what is it that we should tarry until HE comes...we are to keep our eyes on HIM...
Further sir, 2thesselonians 2 implies that HE will be taken out of the way, just before the man of lawlessness is revealed...then will evil run rampant...and that sir, is a 3 1/2 remainder time period of the 7 year tribulation period...

So the first 3 1/2 years, HE will still be in the world, holding back so that evil does not have full reign..

Who do you think convicts the world of sin?
And who do you think will pay the ultimate price for convicting the world of sin but those who are born of HIS SPIRIT...

But...when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way, there will be NO ONE (and THE HOLY SPIRIT will not be convicting the world) to convict men of their sin...

Rev. 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[miknik5]

The reason I point to 2thesselonians 2 and the TRUTH that "when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way"...is that CHRIST promised that HE would be with us forever, even to the end of the ages...that HE would send us another comforter (EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH) who would be with us forever...HE would not leave us as orphans, HE would come to us.

Therefore, if the HOLY SPIRIT who holds all things back and convicts the world of sin, is taken out of the way, where will those born of HIS SPIRIT be?

That sir, is after a 3 1/2 year of tribulation before the man of lawlessness sets himself up in the temple declaring himself to be god.

You see, if HIS BODY knows they are HIS BODY, why do you think they will suffer?
And why do you think the man of lawlessness, before he does these things in the temple, will remove as many CHRISTIANS as he possibly can but to keep those ignorant to the truth, who do not understand CHRIST as THE ONLY COVERING before god, will be confused and reinstate sacrifices before one who is a liar...

This is an abomination!
And this is why GOD will send out HIS craftsman to distinguish between the "outer courts" from the "inner courts"...

Not physical sir...HE sees and knows whose hearts and minds will be appalled...and this is also why it is written that HE will FIRST send out HIS CRAFTSMEN to mark those who are grieved in their souls by all the things that will come upon the earth in these days.

Then those gentiles restricted to the outer courts are those who will face HIS WRATH...physically for now...but eventually and finally...in the final resurrection...spiritually as well...

 

[miknik5]

Rev. 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Beautiful...yes.
And what was that patience, sir...but to REMAIN IN HIM
You see, it is very very easy to have faith in times and seasons of plenty
Another thing when you can't see where you are going, when where you are going and where your feet are taking you are completely far from pleasant and you do NOT want to go...but it is then, in seasons of want, in seasons of JOB that we are to wait and trust and NOT GO OUT from HIS SPIRIT...

There were violent men of the covenant...
And in the end, it will be made manifest those who declared that they knew GOD but by their outward actions blaspheme HIS SPIRIT, from those who clearly knew GOD and trusted in HIS SOVEREIGN control in ALL THINGS...ALL SEASONS...and waited and did not go out...

 

[miknik5]

HE has given us all the tools NOW to keep us from the day of trouble...and what are we to do in that day, but to pray and to wait and trust in HIM that though HE delay, HE will come...

Blessed the man who waits...1335 days and does NOT go out.

What does it mean to "go out"?

Review and compare 1John 2 with 2 John and as well remember John 15 and you will have your answer

 

[Charlie24]

HE has given us all the tools NOW to keep us from the day of trouble...and what are we to do in that day, but to pray and to wait and trust in HIM that though HE delay, HE will come...

Blessed the man who waits...1335 days and does NOT go out.

What does it mean to "go out"?

Review and compare 1John 2 with 2 John and as well remember John 15 and you will have your answer

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[miknik5]

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Okay?
Thanks for that reminder...
There are going to be a lot of things that will interfere and influence our hearts and minds in those days as well...

Trust in the LORD with ALL your heart, and lean not on our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledge HIM and HE shall direct our steps...

As well Philippians 4 reminds us of what to do...and the GOD of peace WILL guard our hearts and our minds IN...IN...IN CHRIST JESUS.

I know that the love of many will grow cold...and that even natural love will be cast down.
HE told us this.
Therefore guard your heart and your mind and keep ever before you in remembrance what you began in...

 

[miknik5]

Another thing to keep in mind is James words...
For you see that in the last days, men will become afraid and wont even do naturally what is natural...

Here is a truth..there will be those who will look to us for help...
And the door to these should not be closed.
In that day, the TRUE CHURCH will be made manifest...
There will be house churches and people will come to look for comfort and wellbeing...
And we, who claim to belong to the LORD, had better not turn any away...

What we can naturally provide and have the ability to give, we should not withhold from anyone...
If we do, who are we to claim ourselves as SPIRITUAL...

 

[Luke17:37]

I'm not going to argue with those who are hell-bent on facing the wrath of God intended for unbelievers.
Paul settled it for me when he addressed the Thessalonian church. They, as many here, are confused about the resurrection.

1Thes. 5:9-11
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

So, I will comfort you with these words, if you have obtained the salvation of the Lord, you will not face the wrath of God.

You're assuming that the Tribulation = God's wrath, and that a person cannot be be protected from God's wrath while remaining alive during the Tribulation. The verse contrasts the saved (inheriting eternal life) and non-saved (abiding in the wrath of God, whose destiny is the Lake of Fire).

Daniel 12:7
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

The power of the holy people (that is, disciples of Jesus Christ) will be shattered during a time, times, and a half a time (3.5 years).

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The dragon will make war with the saints, except for a few, whom God protects from being overcome (see Revelation 12:13-16).

Revelation 13:5-7
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

42 months = 3.5 years

The beast will be allowed to overcome the saints (most of them). He will put them to death. This is not God's wrath against these Christians, but Satan's wrath against God.

Since God is able to protect some of his own (Revelation 7:1-8) and keep them alive through the plagues, even to the coming of the Lord (Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, etc.), there's no requirement for a pre-tribulation rapture. Christians will either be protected or given to slaughter by the authority of the beast and false prophet.

 

[Charlie24]

Another thing to keep in mind is James words...
For you see that in the last days, men will become afraid and wont even do naturally what is natural...

Here is a truth..there will be those who will look to us for help...
And the door to these should not be closed.
In that day, the TRUE CHURCH will be made manifest...
There will be house churches and people will come to look for comfort and wellbeing...
And we, who claim to belong to the LORD, had better not turn any away...

What we can naturally provide and have the ability to give, we should not withhold from anyone...
If we do, who are we to claim ourselves as SPIRITUAL...

The true church (those in Christ) will not be here to help anyone during the tribulation. We are here now to help and warn the world that this day is coming. The 144,000 will proclaim the Gospel to the entire world during the tribulation.

Christ came to bring the New Covenant to only the Jews. It was His plan that Israel, His chosen people, would proclaim the Gospel to the world. But they rejected Him and He chose the church to proclaim the Gospel.

The church will have served its purpose when the wrath of God comes, and will be with Christ during the wrath that comes upon the whole world.

 

[miknik5]

The true church (those in Christ) will not be here to help anyone during the tribulation. We are here now to help and warn the world that this day is coming. The 144,000 will proclaim the Gospel to the entire world during the tribulation.

Christ came to bring the New Covenant to only the Jews. It was His plan that Israel, His chosen people, would proclaim the Gospel to the world. But they rejected Him and He chose the church to proclaim the Gospel.

The church will have served its purpose when the wrath of God comes, and will be with Christ during the wrath that comes upon the whole world.

3 and 1/2 years they will be...and the 144,000 are members of HIS BODY also...
They have the same WHITE GARMENTS as we do...

...and anyone who comes to faith in CHRIST during the time of the tribulation are indeed counted in as HIS CHURCH/HIS BRIDE/HIS BODY

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The only individuals who will be protected from the wiles of the tribulation are the 144000 of Israel ..... no others .... these have a specific purpose

And these with be the first [fruits] believers of the tribulation period .... these will be sealed for protection to carry the gospel first to Israel and then to the nations during the period [Revelation 7:1-8; 9:4; 14:1-7]

There will be no protection for any others who will become believers during tribulation .... most will be killed for their faith [Revelation 13:7; 14:13] .... those who survive will be separated out and will enter the Lord's coming millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 25:31-46]

So the logic in the above post is not correct

Check yourself out because you should not be refuting the Lord's promise to keep His true ecclesia away from His coming wrath and judgment [Revelation 3:10]

You do not have comprehensive scriptural support for your position and I would suggest to you that some one has misled you on the matter

However, you must choose your preference just as all men must do

If you are alive at the time your fate will be one of these two options .... Revelation 3:10, or Revelation 3:9-15

If you pick the second, you will enter the tribulation unsealed .... unless you are one of the selected 144000 of the tribes of Israel

 

[miknik5]

The true church (those in Christ) will not be here to help anyone during the tribulation. We are here now to help and warn the world that this day is coming. The 144,000 will proclaim the Gospel to the entire world during the tribulation.

Christ came to bring the New Covenant to only the Jews. It was His plan that Israel, His chosen people, would proclaim the Gospel to the world. But they rejected Him and He chose the church to proclaim the Gospel.

The church will have served its purpose when the wrath of God comes, and will be with Christ during the wrath that comes upon the whole world.

CHRIST came to bring the New Covenant to ONLY the Jews?
No.
The Covenant is by HIS BLOOD.

HE simply was the TRUE PASSOVER who marks the "houses" of those by HIS BLOOD.
There was always ONE TRUE PASSOVER sir...one taking out of "egypt" and bringing into "ISRAEL (that is the TRUE ISRAEL which is HIS SON) one set apart/covenanted/marked people called by HIS NAME...