Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

Just a wee bit of disagreement, you say? The foolish virgins have just a wee bit less oil than the wise, but a wee bit can make a big difference in the midnight hour. Let us each prepare for a long wait.

lol, shots fired!

 

[Endtime Survivors]

No, I am not. I am talking about bible prophecy, eschatology. Jews, Israel, are all in it.... because God says so.

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Hi Douggg. Ok thanks for clarifying your position on this. I assumed that you would see this concept of the physical vs the spiritual as relevant. It's a little shocking to me to see that this is not part of your consideration when formulating conclusions as to what prophecy could mean for us. I suspect this is probably where a large portion of our disagreement comes from.

I see the physical vs spiritual as a significant part of Jesus' teachings. "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days". "It's not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but what comes out of the heart". "He who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who seeks to lose his life will save it". "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures unto everlasting life". "The flesh counts for nothing, the words I speak to you are spirit and life". "The kingdom of Heaven does not come with observation, for it is within you". "You believe yourselves to be the children of Abraham, but the real children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham".

Over and over again Jesus hammered home this principle; it was a significant part of his ministry. In Revelation 19 an angel says to John, "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus" and the opening line of the book declares that it is a Revelation of Jesus; he is the one being revealed. He is the ultimate subject of all that prophecy. For you to say that this concept of the physical vs the spiritual does not factor into your interpretations on prophecy is shocking.

Won't you consider my point of view?

 

[Psalm3704]

I find this logic so strange. The idea of the rapture equating to "going up" has nothing to do with when the going up happens.

Paul's description of the rapture involves the dead in Christ rising as in going up. The living being caught up also as in going up.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.​

But here's the strange part. Some post-tribbers have a knack for being oblivious of the things they read in the bible. They look to Matthew 24:29-31 and they see Jesus coming and the word "gather" and immediately they're convince this is the rapture.

They're oblivious to the fact that Matthew 24:29-31 said:

1) The elects are gathered from heaven, not earth.

2) They're unaware the angels are the ones gathering the elects who will meet them in heaven in Matthew 24:31. Compare this to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where Paul said we meet Christ, not the angels.

3) In Matthew 24:31, the elects being gathered meet the angels in heaven, not in the air. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we meet Christ in the air, not in heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

And here's the reason why bible scriptures about the rapture just completely goes over many post-tribber's head. Many of the Jews where blinded because they were unwilling to believe. It's the same in the present, many Christians are unwilling to accept the words God spoken in the bible through His prophets and servants, therefore, those who refuse to listen have also been blinded.

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:8
As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’

Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

John 12:40
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Isaiah 6:10
Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.

Zephaniah 1:17
I will bring distress on mankind, so that they shall walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the Lord; their blood shall be poured out like dust, and their flesh like dung.

Matthew 15:14
Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.​

Some post-tribber will always stay post-trib regardless what the bible said concerning the rapture, even after they read scriptures a 1000 times like 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 and Hebrews 12:22-29 that clearly reveals a pre-trib rapture, they will never get it.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

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Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

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Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.​

Neither will they ever get their heavenly rewards Christ has prepared for them. Eternal rewards that are far greater than anything on earth that will last forever, all taken away from them because they're here on earth during the tribulation instead of being in heaven to accept their gifts when Christ hands them out during the Bema Seat. Many Christians have fallen prey to 2 John 8, being deceived by others and became a post-tribber.

2 John 7-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.​

Christ absolutely cannot take anyone with Him that refuses to partake in the pre-tribulation rapture. You have to want it enough to pray to be a part of it (Luke 21:36) and know He's coming for the church at a time no one knows (Matthew 24:43). In a post-trib rapture, everyone knows the second coming is at the end of the tribulation. The number of days are even given in Daniel 12:11-12. How can the owner of the house not know when he's in the tribulation?

Luke 21:36
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."​

Matthew 24:43
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.​

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[Douggg]

Hi Douggg. Ok thanks for clarifying your position on this. I assumed that you would see this concept of the physical vs the spiritual as relevant. It's a little shocking to me to see that this is not part of your consideration when formulating conclusions as to what prophecy could mean for us. I suspect this is probably where a large portion of our disagreement comes from.

You would have a point if anyone here was saying that Jews have eternal life apart from Jesus. But no-one here is saying that.

The only person I know of that holds that Jews have a different plan in regards to salvation is Pastor John Hagee. And maybe the Catholic hierarchy.

The way you are looking at the matter wrong, ES, imo, is that you are trying to do God's management for Him. Let God operate creation instead. He's got it all figured out. What we need to do is make sure our interests are aligned with His interests, and see what he is telling us in the prophecies. The Jews and Israel are all through bible prophecy. What we got to do is figure out how they fit, and all the other pieces. and then we are going to be rewarded with peace and understanding, and assurance of what we believe, because our faith will continue to grow accordingly.

I see the physical vs spiritual as a significant part of Jesus' teachings. "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days". "It's not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but what comes out of the heart". "He who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who seeks to lose his life will save it". "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures unto everlasting life". "The flesh counts for nothing, the words I speak to you are spirit and life". "The kingdom of Heaven does not come with observation, for it is within you". "You believe yourselves to be the children of Abraham, but the real children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham".

You are giving me a sermon. What I am looking at is eschatology, put something on a timeline.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You are giving me a sermon. What I am looking at is eschatology, put something on a timeline.

But no-one here is saying that.

Like I said, the implication is usually there. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Jews having some kind of "special" role to play in prophecy different from other followers of Christ? I've used the word "other" there because there's no other way to describe the situation, which means that your theory necessarily creates a division between the Jews and Christians. What is that division based on? The prophecies do not carry any instruction that the prophecies are only for flesh Jews and no other. That's something you're assuming, but what is the assumption based on? That references to the Jewish people appear "all throughout" the Bible? So? Followers of Jesus also appear all throughout the Bible. The entire NT was a lead-up to Jesus.

This is why the physical vs the spiritual is so important. You read an account of Jesus talking to Jews and you conclude that because he was addressing Jews when he gave these various prophecies, then he must have only been talking to those specific people. That is the letter of the law, or a conclusion based on a physical context (i.e. who Jesus happened to be talking to in-the-flesh at the time). It ignores the spiritual lessons behind the teachings.

Are the Jews the only people who need to not fear what men can do to the body or the only people who need to endure and overcome? No, of course not, so then what you're really doing is picking and choosing the prophecies which suit your personal comfort zone. Salvation and eternal life are for you, of course, even though Jesus was talking to Jews when he gave those teachings, but suffering for faith? Nope, suddenly those parts are only for the Jews while you float to heaven on a flowery bed of ease.

The way you are looking at the matter wrong, ES, imo, is that you are trying to do God's management for Him. Let God operate creation instead. He's got it all figured out. What we need to do is make sure our interests are aligned with His interests, and see what he is telling us in the prophecies.

This is "in-group", "out-group" jargon. When you interpret, it is "aligning your interests with his" but when I interpret I am trying to "do God's management for him". The conclusion doesn't add any information or clarification to the discussion. Would you mind addressing the points I raised?

I actually suggested an explanation for how "The Jews", as a nation, race, and religion could possibly fit into Bible prophecy, and my conclusion wasn't all that far off from yours. What did you think of it?

What we got to do is figure out how they fit, and all the other pieces.

It's rather shocking that you shrug off the teachings of Jesus as "a sermon", in the context that what you're interested in is something far more important (i.e. eschatology). I believe this is the fruit of the pre-trib rapture; a person who is not interested in a how a concept like the physical vs the spiritual should influence our interpretation of prophecy. Instead, you've got "assurance" that all the suffering will be for the other guys...

 

[Luke17:37]

lol, shots fired!

I'm not trying to make war, but just to challenge people to think. All the virgins had oil to start with and all were awaiting the bridegroom. Yet half do not see the face of the bridegroom. I think this is a picture of the great apostasy--Christians falling away from the faith. I think they were sealed with the Holy Spirit (oil) but then somewhere in the waiting they commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Postvieww]

No one is saying that Jesus is the what withholdeth. What withholideth is that the Christians will be raptured before the man of sin reveals himself in his time.

Doug said:

No one is saying that Jesus is the what withholdeth. What withholideth is that the Christians will be raptured before the man of sin reveals himself in his time.

Ok, I concede that you did not actually say Jesus is the what, but I do charge that you have at least implied it in your mixing of the literal with the metaphorical.

Hers is what you did say in post #542 My underlines.

“The "he" is Jesus - not the person of Jesus - but his body the church.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth (Jesus) will let, until he (the body of Christ) be taken out of the way.”

It seems common sense to me that the “what” that withholdeth is the same as the he who letteth. I do stand corrected on what you actually said.

Should we interpret your statement this way.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Church) who now letteth (Church) will let, until he (the body of Christ) be taken out of the way.

Below is your opening post from your thread on this topic, with my underlines:

“6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

One of the last things Jesus said to the disciples....

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Nothing happens unless the Lord Jesus Christ allows it to happen, as all power has been given to him in heaven and in earth. The He who now letteth is the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is he who lets the man of sin be revealed.....

But not until he - the body of Christ - is taken out of the way, which is "the what" in verse 6.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Doug”

Your point that Jesus has all power has been dealt with repeatedly. In a similar fashion as the above point no one has said Jesus does not have all power but some of your posts have implied that I put no importance on that fact or I do not believe it, which is not the case.

You still failed to address the point of the “Day of Christ”. This is a key point in this debate between you and I. If you do not or cannot address the point I raised in post #674 about the “day of Christ” the rest of this discussion matters little. You have claimed it is something that begins after the church is removed (post #662), I have claimed it is one and the same with the coming of the Lord and our Gathering in 2 Thessalonians 2. Therefore it has everything to do with the timing of the events of the passage. I provided multiple scriptures to back my claim you have provided none.

Your total response to point out one discrepancy that I just conceded to you, is no response at all and does nothing to support your claim on this issue.

I stand firmly on what I have claimed all along:

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, is the day of Christ and “that day” will not happen until, first the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. That is what the text says without creative interpretation.

Awaiting your point by point response to post # 674.

 

[Postvieww]

All arguments that depend solely on the exact wording of coming of the Lord passages to “prove” their point by comparing one to the other, pre or post are irrelevant. Because no two coming of the Lord passages in scripture are identical in wording or points mentioned. If we use facts mentioned or left out as our guide we could have 5, 6, or 7 or more comings. No 2 agree 100% on every point. Awaiting a challenge to this point with actual scripture.

Hint, look for things that agree not things that are different!

 

[Douggg]

It seems common sense to me that the “what” that withholdeth is the same as the he who letteth. I do stand corrected on what you actually said.

No, the "what holdeth" is not the same as the person who letteth. Which verse 6, the what withholdeth before the man of sin revealed in his time disproves the post trib view. "What" is not a "who". Those are two completely different words.

There are over 42 months between the man of sin revealing himself and Jesus returning to destroy him - which that timeframe is the Day of Christ.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the rapture taking place first) that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth will let, until he (Jesus - his body on earth Christians) be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I'm not trying to make war, but just to challenge people to think. All the virgins had oil to start with and all were awaiting the bridegroom. Yet half do not see the face of the bridegroom. I think this is a picture of the great apostasy--Christians falling away from the faith. I think they were sealed with the Holy Spirit (oil) but then somewhere in the waiting they commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah I realize. I was mostly teasing. I don't think you were being rude or proud with your argument; I think you made quite a good point which does come across as shots fired at wishful thinking. Your reference to the wise virgins being prepared for more than what they had originally expected was fantastic.

We all have our problems with listening to God, in one way or another. People who have issues with greed argue against Jesus' teachings teachings against working for money and the things money can buy (i.e. mammon). People who have issues with respectability and pride argue against Jesus' teachings about secret prayer, secret fasting, secret charity giving, taking the lower seat, and refraining from special titles of flattery like "Mister" (which is a variant of "master" and "Sir" which is a shortened form of "sire", aka "father").

People who have problems with hypocrisy argue against Jesus' teachings about judging ourselves first before we judge others. People who have problems with suffering, persecution, and inconvenience argue against Jesus' teachings about taking up our cross, not fearing what people can do to the body and being prepared for the worst case, (i.e. the lesson behind the wise virgins parable).

It is convenient to see "escape" in the Bible but it is rarely consistent. I'm quite certain that there will be some measure of miraculous protection. The 144k are specifically described as receiving some kind of protection and yet, there they are, right in the thick of the tribulation, too. Jesus talked about people being persecuted, betrayed and murdered for their faith and then followed up with, "but not a hair of your head will be harmed".

The physical verses the spiritual. They can kill the body but they can't kill the spirit. That's what matters to God and that's what should matter to us. I've met very few pre-tribbers who have that kind of vision. So often their faith hinges on the idea that a loving God would not put them through Great Tribulation. Consequently, if they do end up being wrong, they have nothing to fall back on, unless they've got a fairly deep sincerity there to pull them up out of the quagmire of panic and bitterness that will surely be there. I believe this is why Jesus warned us about people who would say, "he's returned secretly", "he's in the desert" or "he's in the secret chambers". It sounds very much like the kind of panic which will happen when all the trouble starts and those who thought they had their escape plan all worked out realize they were mistaken.

For those virgins who brought extra oil, a timely return of the bridegroom wouldn't embarrass them or inconvenience them. But, for those who expected a more speedy return, their mistake cost them everything.

 

[Riberra]

Here they are again .... listen to what the Lord tells them .... they will enter the tribulation with no oil [Revelation 3:15-20] .... unsaved .... just like the balance of humanity not saved

So you are saying that being saved means being taken to Heaven before the tribulation...Is that right ?

 

[Douggg]

Otherwise, what would be the point of the Jews having some kind of "special" role to play in prophecy different from other followers of Christ?

When you indicate the word "special" what you are really meaning is "better than". The Antichrist is a special person. Specially evil. And he will be a Jew.

But no one that I know of have heard say that Jews are "special" as far as being better than any other peoples, merely by being as Jew.

They are a chosen people, that God's power can be exhibited for the rest of the world to believe in Him - but that does not equate to any Jew being saved on the premise of being a Jew. Christians are the called and chosen unto salvation.

Eschatology is the studying of the end times. Times of events that can be placed on a timeline, in the right order. It's irrelevant whether it is the Jews, Israel, the EU, China, the Russians, the Vatican, etc. - they are all "special" - they go on the timeline somewhere.

If you want to attack the idea that Jews are saved by virtue of being Jews - then sure do that battle - but not here. As no-one in this forum is saying that they are. And it has not bearing on the eschatology discussions here because no-one is implying it or saying it. You are wanting to make it an issue when it is a non-issue in this forum.

This forum is about eschatology, not about salvation as salvation is a given for everyone participating here.

Israel and Jews are all through end time prophecy passages, in a major way. The eschatology timeline cannot be built apart from including their involvement.

 

[Straightshot]

"What would be the point of the Jews having some kind of "special" role to play in prophecy different from other followers of Christ?"

Let the Lord speak:

Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[Postvieww]

No, the "what holdeth" is not the same as the person who letteth. Which verse 6, the what withholdeth before the man of sin revealed in his time disproves the post trib view. "What" is not a "who". Those are two completely different words.

There are over 42 months between the man of sin revealing himself and Jesus returning to destroy him - which that timeframe is the Day of Christ.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the rapture taking place first) that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth will let, until he (Jesus - his body on earth Christians) be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Doug said:
No, the "what holdeth" is not the same as the person who letteth. Which verse 6, the what withholdeth before the man of sin revealed in his time disproves the post trib view. "What" is not a "who". Those are two completely different words.

Based on what?

If I hold back my vicious dog on a leash to keep him from attacking you and then release him to chew on your ankles and reveal himself to be an attack dog, I am both he that withholdeth and he that letteth.

There are over 42 months between the man of sin revealing himself and Jesus returning to destroy him - which that timeframe is the Day of Christ.

Since you can’t or won’t defend your position on the “Day of Christ” with scripture, I can’t accept anything in your theory as correct and encourage others not to as well.

The day of Christ in this passage is the day of His coming, and the day of our gathering. You simply saying no it is not does not change all of the scriptures I gave in post #674.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the rapture taking place first) that he might be revealed in his time.

The rapture being what withholdeth is based on what? What is being withheld? How does the presence of the church prevent that from happening? Michael at the direction of Christ cannot prevent the man of sin from being revealed but the church can?

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth will let, until he (Jesus - his body on earth Christians) be taken out of the way.

Why can’t the saints referred to in Revelation prevent the man of sin from being revealed?

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This theory is full of assumptions convenient to the pre trib position, with no scriptural support .

Too many unanswered question with your theory.

 

[Douggg]

Based on what?

If I hold back my vicious dog on a leash to keep him from attacking you and then release him to chew on your ankles and reveal himself to be an attack dog, I am both he that withholdeth and he that letteth.

But it is not "he" that withholdeth in the text.
Because the word used 2:6 is "what" , not "who", withholdeth.

 

[Douggg]

Since you can’t or won’t defend your position on the “Day of Christ” with scripture, I can’t accept anything in your theory as correct and encourage others not to as well.

It tells you in 2:2 and 2.3 that the Day of Christ is that timeframe beginning after....

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And ending when Jesus returns and destroys him.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Day of the Lord cannot begin until the man of sin reveals himself in his time. And before the man of sin reveals himself in his time, the rapture will happen which is the message of verse 6.

 

[Straightshot]

"The Day of the Lord cannot begin until the man of sin reveals himself in his time. And before the man of sin reveals himself in his time, the rapture will happen"


You are exactly correct Doug

Post-tribulation thinkers are almost as intransigent with their dogmas as a preterist

Once they get brainwashed there is usually no chance for recovery

These want to enter the tribulation in order to prove their salvation .... this is a religion of works

They say they must be purified by the experience

 

[Postvieww]

It tells you in 2:2 and 2.3 that the Day of Christ is that timeframe beginning after....

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And ending when Jesus returns and destroys him.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Day of the Lord cannot begin until the man of sin reveals himself in his time. And before the man of sin reveals himself in his time, the rapture will happen which is the message of verse 6.

Sorry but you still have not addressed even 1 of the 5 scriptures I gave you. The day of Christ is not what or when you say it is according to Paul.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry but you still have not addressed even 1 of the 5 scriptures I gave you. The day of Christ is not what or when you say it is according to Paul.

I have gone over all of those scriptures and cited Revelation 12:12 about them in heaven rejoicing during that time (during the Day of the Lord), while woe to the inhabitants of the earth during (the Day of the Lord).

It's the same time period, but different results. The raptured and resurrected saints will be in heaven rejoicing. And them here on earth will be going through the great tribulation, until Jesus returns and destroys the man of sin, just like it says in 2thessalonians2:8.

Revelation
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Douggg]

"The Day of the Lord cannot begin until the man of sin reveals himself in his time. And before the man of sin reveals himself in his time, the rapture will happen"


You are exactly correct Doug

Post-tribulation thinkers are almost as intransigent with their dogmas as a preterist

Once they get brainwashed there is usually no chance for recovery

These want to enter the tribulation in order to prove their salvation .... this is a religion of works

They say they must be purified by the experience

I have hope for Riberra and Postview. I don't expect them to become pre-trib, because pre-70th week is not a guarantee. But I am hopeful for pre-man of sin revealing himself act, of them coming around to that view of the rapture.

.