Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Douggg]

Ask Jesus he has all power. He doesn't tell why He does everything He does.

When does Michael start doing his restraining ? There is not even a temple built that the man of sin can go into, sit, and claim to be God.

What is the purpose of Michael restraining the man of sin from committing the act?

 

[Riberra]

"By which reasoning you get a resurrection from Revelation 3:10 is a mystery"


No mystery to me .... a mystery to you

There is no resurrection mentioned in the whole address to the Church of Philadelphia Revelation 3:7-13....You try to read too much between the lines,your imagination play tricks on you.

You place an historical impediment upon the verse .... this event is future and still pending

The address to the SEVEN Churches Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 were to be taken into account as soon as John send the Book of Revelation to the SEVEN Churches who were in existence THEN. Because the judgement coming upon these 7 Churches was to happen SOON.John write the Book of revelation in 92 AD or 94 AD.
Revelation 1:10-11
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

There is of course also a component about future things, it start with the opening of the seals ...2,000 years and more of events to happen until the opening of the 6th seal.......7th seal....

The Tribulation of the END TIMES start with
The seven trumpets ....

The seven Vials of the WRATH OF GOD....

The Coming of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15 [the Earth will be engulfed in thick clouds darkness at that moment until Mid Day]...the 7 Th vial is poured out ... and later in MID DAY The battle of Armageddon with the visible appearance of Jesus in Glory to destroy His enemies....Revelation 19:11-21

Do you not know that the Lord's message to the "church" still stands today .... nothing has changed

His message exemplifying His evaluation of the behavior of the same .... is still the same

The address to the people of the Earth during the tribulation of the end time will be made by an Angel send by God.
Revelation 14:9-13

And you need to pay special attention to these verses [Revelation 2:9; 3:9; 3:10; 3:15-20]
You are doing some things for which you will pay a price

Believe me ,those who promote falsely an easy way out (immortality/rapture to Heaven before the tribulation) because they believe they can see things which are not in the text ,and preach that God have made such a promise will pay the price.You are more in danger than me because millions of Christians mostly in the Protestant Churches have been mislead by false teachers .

 

[Postvieww]

When does Michael start doing his restraining ? There is not even a temple built that the man of sin can go into, sit, and claim to be God.

What is the purpose of Michael restraining the man of sin from committing the act?

When does Jesus start His restraining? I am sure Jesus knows there is no temple yet.

Why is Jesus restraining the man of sin from commiting this act?

What is the purpose of this question?

The fact is Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:1-3 prove beyond any doubt that it is possible for an angel at the command of the Lord do whatever is necessary with satan. So this idea that it is impossible for it to be Michael is a false narrative not backed by anything in scripture. I don’t ask you to agree it is Michael but let’s be intellectually honest about the possibility.

 

[Postvieww]

"Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, (the things which are in John’s day , the seven church were literal churches in John’s day) , and the things which shall be hereafter; (hear after is hear after John’s day, future to John)"


Wrong again .... not just after John's day, but much longer

After the Lord's dispensation of grace for the "church" still on going .... then the coming tribulation, and beyond

John's spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown "the things here after"

The tribulation [day of the Lord] is still pending at this time

Can you get this?

What John saw was Revelation's account of the coming tribulation .... "the things here after" .... things that have never yet taken place to this very day

This is what John was to write down in advance .... and guess what? .... he did

Now your idea just does not compute does it?

So when the Lord's true ecclesia are made immortal .... then the tribulation will begin, not before

So where will you be?

This stuff above is prophecy 101 ... but you seem to be totally oblivious to the facts

Or do you just like to argue?

I will tell you what your problem is .... you have listened too long to false teachers like David McPherson .... who says that the Lord's pre-tribulation call is a lie of the devil

Straightshot #620

Wrong again .... not just after John's day, but much longer

Based on what?

After the Lord's dispensation of grace for the "church" still on going .... then the coming tribulation, and beyond

How many of the seven churches listed are still with us? Let’s see what Jesus said about it.

Revelation1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

If you want to spiritualize the churches and make them represent different times in the church age go ahead. Many people do that but there are many interpretations as to what each stand for. There is not a lot of consistency in many of those theories. Of this we can be certain there were 7 literal churches in John’s day and Jesus named them one by one. Those are “the things which are” that is only common sense. They were in existence as Jesus was speaking to John at that time.

John's spirit was taken to heaven and into the future to be shown "the things here after"

Agree that he was shown the future. “Write the things which thou hast seen”.

The tribulation [day of the Lord] is still pending at this time

Of course it is.

Can you get this?

Challenge, see if you can do a post without remarks such as this.

What John saw was Revelation's account of the coming tribulation .... "the things here after" .... things that have never yet taken place to this very day

Agree, I believe I implied that in my post.

This is what John was to write down in advance .... and guess what? .... he did

He wrote about the 7 churches that were already in existence as well as the future events he was shown.

Now your idea just does not compute does it?

I believe it does.

So when the Lord's true ecclesia are made immortal .... then the tribulation will begin, not before

That is nowhere in the book of Revelation. If I am wrong point it out to me with scripture and not smart remarks.

So where will you be?

If still alive at the time right here on this earth with you. We probably won’t have time for the back and forth exchanges such as this.

This stuff above is prophecy 101 ... but you seem to be totally oblivious to the facts

You seem to oblivious to the fact that you may not be 100% correct in all of your eschatology just as I am probably not 100% in mine.

Or do you just like to argue?

Yes I do like to argue for what I believe to be truth just as do you. That’s why I am on a debate forum. What I do not like is to be talked down to by people who think they know everything and could not possible wrong on anything. I’m sure glad we don’t have people like that here.

I will tell you what your problem is .... you have listened too long to false teachers like David McPherson .... who says that the Lord's pre-tribulation call is a lie of the devil

I’ve never listened to David McPherson but you know he may be on to something.

 

[Douggg]

When does Jesus start His restraining? I am sure Jesus knows there is no temple yet.

Why is Jesus restraining the man of sin from commiting this act?

What is the purpose of this question?

The fact is Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:1-3 prove beyond any doubt that it is possible for an angel at the command of the Lord do whatever is necessary with satan. So this idea that it is impossible for it to be Michael is a false narrative not backed by anything in scripture. I don’t ask you to agree it is Michael but let’s be intellectually honest about the possibility.

In the KJV it is letteth and let, not restrains, because if the mystery of iniquity was already at work, it was not being restrained.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Verse 7 doesn't even make sense without verse 6.... "in his time".

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time is that Christians must be take out of the way first.

Michael is not restraining anyone right now, and neither is Jesus because the person is not in his time. When there is a temple built and the person's time has come, which he has to be born in the world as well, primarily those two things, and he is able to commit the deed in the temple - he will not be allowed, until the middle of the 7 years, and not before the Christians, them who fit Luke 21:34-36 are taken out of the way, raptured.

And Jesus will be restraining the person so that the two witnesses can testify to the nation of Israel to prepare them, that they will know to flee to the wildernss, and to know what is about to take place - so that when it does they will believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.

 

[Straightshot]

"I’ve never listened to David McPherson but you know he may be on to something"


Somehow I don't believe that, but you are listening to some who has .... he is the guru of the devil's lie

.... and he is on something .... self pitty

 

[Postvieww]

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

How is it that not one of these scripture mentions a return trip to heaven? How is it that apart from our spirits going to heaven in death or Paul and John’s experience, there is no mention of anyone going to heaven for a short stay, anywhere in the New Testament? How come there is no reference to resurrected or changed into their immortal bodies saints in heaven? In scripture we have plain talk about hell, Jesus return, events that will unfold in our future on this earth, prayer, healing, baptism, forgiveness, repentance, salvation , what have I left out here, but no plain talk about the church going to heaven for 7 or 3 ½ years? If I’ve left out the scripture that plainly states this please post it.

I already know all of the creative ways to get the church into heaven for the tribulation, I used to teach them. I’m looking for just one clear, plainly stated scripture that says that happens.

 

[Straightshot]

As I look at your listing I see many errors and crooked renderings of scripture

Who is paying you?

 

[Postvieww]

In the KJV it is letteth and let, not restrains, because if the mystery of iniquity was already at work, it was not being restrained.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Verse 7 doesn't even make sense without verse 6.... "in his time".

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time is that Christians must be take out of the way first.

Michael is not restraining anyone right now, and neither is Jesus because the person is not in his time. When there is a temple built and the person's time has come, which he has to be born in the world as well, primarily those two things, and he is able to commit the deed in the temple - he will not be allowed, until the middle of the 7 years, and not before the Christians, them who fit Luke 21:34-36 are taken out of the way, raptured.

And Jesus will be restraining the person so that the two witnesses can testify to the nation of Israel to prepare them, that they will know to flee to the wildernss, and to know what is about to take place - so that when it does they will believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.

You still avoid the real point here. Prove it can not be an angel when it happens.

I left out one scripture.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Now where is your scripture that says this cannot happen, I have given you 3 to make my point.

 

[Postvieww]

As I look at your listing I see many errors and crooked renderings of scripture

Who is paying you?

Maybe you could just point out those errors so those that read this forum will not be misled.

 

[Straightshot]

Maybe I won't waste the time .... again

There are some people who feed on strange things .... over and over and over

 

[Postvieww]

Maybe I won't waste the time .... again

There are some people who feed on strange things .... over and over and over

I knew you wouldn't. What is strange? It is the topic of this forum. If you can't rebutt my post why waste time commenting on it.

 

[Straightshot]

Bla bla bla

Do you have McPherson's book on how to win a debate?

I have heard what you just spewed out more times than I can count

.... you have been rebutted

It only takes one kick

 

[Douggg]

You still avoid the real point here. Prove it can not be an angel when it happens.

I left out one scripture.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Now where is your scripture that says this cannot happen, I have given you 3 to make my point.

Because the mystery of iniquity already at work is not the prerogative of an angel, no angel is in the position to allow or disallow that spiritual matter. Being saved for example is not the prerogative of any angel, it is only God who can do it.

I have proved the four fundamental W's.

Who - who is being restrained is the man of sin from comitting the act.

When - in his time, when he is born into the world, and when there is a temple standing.

What - what witholdeth the person from committing the act in his time, is that the rapture must take place first.

Why - so that the testimony of the two witnesses will prepare Israel, so that they will know to flee to the wilderness
and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, when the person betrays them and commits the act.

 

[Straightshot]

The Restrainer is the Lord, Doug .... this must be

His holy spirit never leaves His universe

And to argue with PV is futile .... you must know this by now

This post-tribulation thinker does not want to take the Lord at His word and wants to surf the tribulation

And at the same time he talks of multi-toed demonic/human combos [products of fallen angels and human women] that can be discovered upon the earth

What does this tell you?

 

[Douggg]

The Restrainer is the Lord Doug .... this must be

You need to go back and edit and put a comma after Lord.

 

[Straightshot]

"You need to go back and edit and put a comma after Lord"


I will .... just for you

 

[Postvieww]

Because the mystery of iniquity already at work is not the prerogative of an angel, no angel is in the position to allow or disallow that spiritual matter. Being saved for example is not the prerogative of any angel, it is only God who can do it.

I have proved the four fundamental W's.

Who - who is being restrained is the man of sin from comitting the act.

When - in his time, when he is born into the world, and when there is a temple standing.

What - what witholdeth the person from committing the act in his time, is that the rapture must take place first.

Why - so that the testimony of the two witnesses will prepare Israel, so that they will know to flee to the wilderness
and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, when the person betrays them and commits the act.

It is the revealing of the man of sin that is being restrained not mystery of iniquity which is at work. Since the “mystery of iniquity” is at work now it should be obvious that is not what is restrained. The revealing of the identity of the man of sin and his arrival on the world scene cannot be likened to the spiritual act of salvation. I still see no scriptural reason an angel cannot fulfill the role we are discussing.

 

[Douggg]

It is the revealing of the man of sin that is being restrained not mystery of iniquity which is at work. Since the “mystery of iniquity” is at work now it should be obvious that is not what is restrained. The revealing of the identity of the man of sin and his arrival on the world scene cannot be likened to the spiritual act of salvation. I still see no scriptural reason an angel cannot fulfill the role we are discussing.

The person who does the restraining is also allowing the mystery of iniquity to be at work in the world.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I knew you wouldn't. What is strange? It is the topic of this forum. If you can't rebutt my post why waste time commenting on it.

Excellent response.