Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[ETide]

Yours looks nice though..

 

[Asinner]

Yours looks nice though..

It's natural.

 

[ETide]

It's natural.

Naturally.. perhaps you can help Theo..

 

[Asinner]

Naturally.. perhaps you can help Theo..

Ooops . . . I'm too late.

 

[racer]

Dont make me get out the leash....

Nose or no nose...ya cant get away that fast. hehehe

Have you ever heard a coonhound howl? Ten or twenty minutes of that, and I guarantee you'll turn me loose.

Hey racer....guess what??

Okay, I'll bite . . . . . what?

 

[racer]

Do you guys know one other reason we can be assured the "church" will never be defeated? This verse:

Mat 18:20; For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

As long as there are two or three people left who believe and serve God, His church prevails.

 

[Theophorus]

The church of God has its beginnings at Pentecost, ~2000 years ago now..it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being its chief cornerstone..

As for the members of the church of God, we were in times past alienated from the life of God, dead in trespasses and in sins.. were were children of disobedience and wrath, just as others.. (See Eph 2)

BUT, when we trusted in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and after we believed.. we were sealed (by God) with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (See Eph 1:13)

we were in times past alienated from the life of God

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

So, how you can suggest that there is no tangible benefit from being IN CHRIST.. is beyond me..

Unity is a tangible benefit. Virtue is a tangible benefit. Freedom from the passions is a tangible benefit.

You need to change your hair color too..

 

[racer]

Ok, back up...I see everyone taking the Bible to mean it is for anyone, but wait a minute...He sent Him to the Apostles so THEY could go out and baptize others to receive Him.

So, you believe that the Comforter was sent only to the apostles? Do you believe the Bible is not for all believers, just the apostles and the proceeding line of successors? Are you asserting that we, as individuals are not guided by the Holy Spirit? That only the Church is being directed, and we just succumb to the Church?

NOT to be mean, but He was speaking again, to the Apostles, and all those whom they made sons and daughters.

We've have Peter speaking here. I didn't quote Acts 2:18, but let me do so now:

2:18; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:



​

Who are his servants and handmaidens? From verse 2:16 Peter is quoting Joel. So, you can not assert that verses 17 and 18 are directed to the Apostles and those made by sons and daughters by them.

The Bible is basically a text written to show, proove and write about the works of the Apostles,

Good grief, what's with the mumbo-jumbo? The Bible was written about the works of the Apostles? Seriously, WA, where do you get this stuff? Was the OT about the apostles? The Bible is about Jesus Christ and His Gospel . . . . definitely not about the apostles. However, if this is what you truly believe about the Bible, I can understand why you are so willing to dismiss it for what it truly is.

and all those who were following their teachings....and I add, to a 'T' were they to follow. Or else the Apostles admonished the heresies

Excuse me! The apostles admonished those not following their teachings to a "T?" They weren't exactly sure about the teachings themselves. Do you forget Paul correcting Peter?

Again, the promise is for those who strictly adhered to the Apostles teachings....

Explain to me where you get this information please? Are you asserting that people who do not follow the teachings of the apostles (not Jesus) to a "T" do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Actually it is very relevent...gnostics put pen to paper too.

So we must be careful, as was the Church, to discern who was Inspired.

WA, are you saying that all authors of Scripture have been definitively identified? I think you missed my point.

See above.... and how we trust scipture is not that we just trust it, BUT that we were taught thru the Church to trust it.

To continually place sole responsibility on the writers and the compilers of Scripture is to ignore the abilities of God and the supernatural element of Christianity. To continue to give God's glory to the men of your Church, is to ignore God's power. It's not just about being taught by the Church, but that the Church is teaching according to the Gospel of Christ--not according to the Gospel of the Church.

Dont you see that?

The truth can be learned without the Church. It can be learned from the Scriptures. It would likely be more difficult, but that's where God comes into the picture.

I know you don't like it when I do this, but here's another quote from Augustine:

On Christian Doctrine, Book I

CHAP. 39.--HE WHO IS MATURE IN FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE, NEEDS SCRIPTURE NO LONGER.

43. And thus a man who is resting upon faith, hope and love, and who keeps a firm hold upon these, does not need the Scriptures except for the purpose of instructing others. Accordingly, many live without copies of the Scriptures, even in solitude, on the strength of these three graces. . .

Do you really not see the reason for Scripture . . . it was put in writing first for preservation so that it could be used for instruction. He says "even in solitude" a men can live without Scripture. If they are in solitude, it's likely their not going to Mass.

Well, then if He was not left with the ordained, then this means that there is no set truth...correct?

Do you ever set aside your own beliefs and understandings just long enough to try to understand what people are saying? Where does your logic come from? This statement makes no sense. What do you mean "no set truth?" The set truth is the Gospel as revealed in Scripture, and it clearly reveals as I quoted for you, that Christ ascended to the right hand of God and sent the Holy Spirit. Remember Acts 2 and Pentecost? I just quoted it for you. Do you have no faith in Scripture at all? Do you place it all in the hands of your church?

The reason He is here was thru the ordination of the Aposltes, who in turn baptized...so Christ [ordination] breathed on them, of which was their initial baptism, and they in turn baptized.

This part of your statement is true: Christ [ordination] breathed on them, of which was their initial baptism, and they in turn baptized. The first part makes no sense. Some 3000 people were baptized at Pentecost.

See, there is and must be a definite line ......

Says who? And why?

If anyone could do this..then why did He choose certain men??

What? If anyone could do what? Baptize? Who says just anybody can baptize?

Why not say this to everyone in a crowd??

He instructed the apostles so that they could continue His teachings when he was no longer here. Again, WA, do you assert that only the apostles, priests, and Popes are guided by the Holy Spirit?

This is a whole ball of wax..do you really want to get into it??

There's nothing to get into here. The answer is the same, no matter how infallibly the Holy Spirit is leading "men," men do not follow Him infallibly--not even popes. It's a very simple answer.

John warned and Christ warned against others coming and leading ppl away.

And who did they warn, WA? Just the apostles? No, the warning was given to all of us. If they did not believe we could distinguish between the truth and deception, they would not have told us to watch. Now, just how do we discern when we are being deceived if we are not to trust our own discernment? Did they say, "beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Get yee to the nearest church for protection?" How would we know we are being deceived? Can you answer that? If you can't trust that you correctly interpret or understand Scripture, what makes you think you can correctly understand what your church is teaching you? Is it because you think that being spoon-fed the supposed truth from the mouths of someone else is more trustworthy? That may be so for you. Some people are "oral" learners and learn better from verbal instruction. Other people are more visual and learn better from reading and studying for themselves. All people learn differently.

I know those outside of the Church can surely and do surely go to Heaven....but those scriptures were according to those who believed and followed what the Apostles directly taught,

Again, what is your source for that teaching? What makes you believe such a thing?

NO One else was given this 'authority' to teach and write on behalf of the Spirit as the Apostles were......

Think about what you just said.

And not only does it matter what was written, but a whole lot more happened and Tradition was the only way of which first converts were taught without the NT.

And, it doesn't bother you at all that you can't prove this? You've been given every opportunity to do so and haven't. If a whole lot more happened, and Tradition can attest to this, then just name for me one thing that happened out of the "whole lot more." Can you do this?

Oral teachings, and then the Epistles which gave a 'record' of sorts of what occured, mind you not all of what occurred, because we are talking a span of about 30 or more years worth to write everything in a few Epistles...including what was taught in specifics.

We've already addressed that not all of what Jesus did was written down. Couldn't be done. But, there's no reason to believe that anything that Jesus taught is missing.

Here is a few questions to ask yourself......

Do you want to be a part of the first Church which thru Apostolic succussion has the same truths since Christ?

That is completely immaterial to me. I want to love and serve Christ, and the Christ Scripture reveals to me doesn't care what building I worship Him in.

A question for you: Do you really not see the pettiness of such a question? Is that really all you care about, all that you desire--that you belong to a church which claims to be the "first church?"

I do not see any evidence that your church has preserve any "same truths." It's a claim that has absolutely not affirmation. However, Scripture is provable and verifiable.

Do you desire the doctrines and The Body and Blood of our Lord, whom we shall be saved thru the Bread and Wine made manifest into His actual Body and Blood.

No. I do not desire a non-existent teaching of Christ. I desire communion with His Spirit and my fellow Christian brothers and sisters which a receive through my church.

The hands He ordained have the power to consecrate....to bless the bread and wine and GIVE US CHRIST.

Do I desire this? I see ministers ordained for more than blessing the bread and wine during communion. All churches feed their flocks.

I just do not understand why ppl stand behind the scriptures and what they make of them...but do not crave our Lord so fully in the Eucharist.

Because, Scripture does not teach the Real Presence.

To bring Him into ourselves...to let Him be a part of us. Fully accepting Him.

Because, this is done by believing, not by any physical action on my part. His Spirit is in me.

Again from Augustine's Homilies on John, Tractate 25, John 15-44:

12. . . . . This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent." This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.

 

[Theophorus]

Do you guys know one other reason we can be assured the "church" will never be defeated? This verse:

Mat 18:20; For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

As long as there are two or three people left who believe and serve God, His church prevails.

This is the most true statement I have seen you post. So at the end of the world; there are people? Or is it the Saints that perpetuate the Church, or does the Church end.....

 

[racer]

This is the most true statement I have seen you post. So at the end of the world; there are people? Or is it the Saints that perpetuate the Church, or does the Church end.....

I mean whatever Jesus meant when He said it . . . . Maybe, I should have left the word "people" out of my statement.
Gee, the nitpicking about piddly things gets old . . . .

 

[racer]

This is the most true statement I have seen you post.

So, you agree that the visible, man-operated institution is not necessary?

 

[Theophorus]

I mean whatever Jesus meant when He said it . . . .

So you don't know. Thx for being honest.

 

[Theophorus]

So, you agree that the visible, man-operated institution is not necessary?

No, I do not see that in the scriptures. Since God became man.

 

[ETide]

we were in times past alienated from the life of God

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

I'm not understanding where you may trying to go with this.. because I mentioned that the church has its beginnings at Pentecost, and that we were once alienated from the life of God through dead works.. so how does the verse here in Heb 12 speak for or against that..?

I'm also curious now.. does the orthodox church teach that the church of God did not begin at Pentecost, but that it existed before that, perhaps as the Israel of God..?

Unity is a tangible benefit. Virtue is a tangible benefit. Freedom from the passions is a tangible benefit.

Yes these are tangible benefits.. and as I mentioned to Asinner, if your perspective is orthodoxy versus protestantism, then that will remain your standard of gauging these things.. although in reality there is one body, one church, it's Christ's church, and there is unity, virtue, and freedom within that body, which again is His body, His church.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Second Epistle Of Saint Peter
Ch 2




He warns them against false teachers and foretells their punishment.


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.


1 "Sects of perdition"... That is, heresies destructive of salvation.


6 And reducing the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly. 7 And delivered just Lot, oppressed by the injustice and lewd conversation of the wicked. 8 For in sight and hearing he was just: dwelling among them, who from day to day vexed the just soul with unjust works. 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented. 10 And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government, audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming.
11 Whereas angels who are greater in strength and power, bring not against themselves a railing judgment. 12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption, 13 Receiving the reward of their injustice, counting for a pleasure the delights of a day: stains and spots, sporting themselves to excess, rioting in their feasts with you: 14 Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls, having their heart exercised with covetousness, children of malediction: 15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

11 "A railing judgment"... That is, they use no railing, nor cursing sentence; not even in their conflicts with the evil angels. See St. Jude, ver. 9.


13 "The delights of a day"... that is, the short delights of this world, in which they place all their happiness.



16 But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet. 17 These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved. 18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness, those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error: 19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[ETide]

It's always a good idea to turn the sword of the Spirit inward WA... if you know what I mean..

 

[WarriorAngel]

It's always a good idea to turn the sword of the Spirit inward WA... if you know what I mean..

2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Nothing more need be said...we all know how much many sects hate the first Church, hate the first Truth.

To which the Spirit of the Lord has NOT left His guardianship of what Christ built upon.

Whether that be through men, because there is no other way to do so.... but to trust in men the Spirit guides...or whether that be in His sacred sacraments He instituted for mankind to aid their ongoing work towards Heaven...

Outside of which anything that contradicts the Church is not with the Church and the CHURCH is the visisble sign of the Lord's covenant to man.

Peace!

 

[ETide]

2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Nothing more need be said...we all know how much many sects hate the first Church, hate the first Truth.

To which the Spirit of the Lord has NOT left His guardianship of what Christ built upon.

Whether that be through men, because there is no other way to do so.... but to trust in men the Spirit guides...or whether that be in His sacred sacraments He instituted for mankind to aid their ongoing work towards Heaven...

Outside of which anything that contradicts the Church is not with the Church and the CHURCH is the visisble sign of the Lord's covenant to man.

Peace!

You say this concerning others outside of what you consider the church of God to be, and then say..

Peace..

OK WA.. peace..but thanks for sharing how you truly feel..

 

[WarriorAngel]

You say this concerning others outside of what you consider the church of God to be, and then say..

Peace..

OK WA.. peace..but thanks for sharing how you truly feel..

We are never to give Peace without feeling it...

If I wished you no peace, I would not discuss in dialogue what I have.

So my offering is genuine...your acceptance is yours alone.

AND for the record, history is pretty self reliant to the truth.....

You must start with point A, which takes you to point B, which will lead you to point C.

How you discredit the Church is beyond me....

Christ went to the Apostles, who in turn by His command established Christ's Church, with which that line has never been broken, and the doctrines havent been polluted...and yet.....you seem to suggest rather bluntly and strongly....

We do not have the truth because we follow men?

See, that makes no sense, because Christ Himself left men in charge, and instructed them to build His Church.
[Establish His doctrines...aka sacraments]

It is rather lacking merit For you to claim men should not be followed....yet it was men who led you away.

Peace to you always, and may the Spirit lead you forever, I shall pray.

 

[racer]

No, I do not see that in the scriptures. Since God became man.

You said: This is the most true statement I have seen you post.

So, either you agree with me that the church is not identified as a physical, tangible, man operated institution, therefore its victory is not determined by the continuing existence of any particular Christian denomination (including yours). Or, you did not understand the intent of my quote and misinterpreted the meaning behind it.

So, which is it . . . . . . .